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Sperry Wash Meeting 9-14 @ 7PM


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#1 ynot

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 09:10 AM

Posted Yesterday, 01:42 PM

This is in the Pahrump newspaper on 9-2-11. If you think the town of Tecopa wants to keep Sperry wash open your living in a dreamland. They want it closed and no OHV traffic anywhere near their little piece of Paradise by us bad off-roaders! Read the info on this meeting at the bottom of the post please.

http://pvtimes.com/c...amargosa-river/
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Pahrump Valley Times

The Bureau of Land Management Barstow office will hold a public scoping meeting at 7 p.m., Sept. 14, in Tecopa, Calif., to gather comments for developing a management plan for the Amargosa River area. A short presentation regarding the planning process will be shown, and the public is welcome to participate and submit comments.
In 2009, a 22-mile section of the Amargosa River was declared a wild and scenic river by Congressional legislation, and the BLM is charged with managing and protecting the outstandingly remarkable values of the area which earned it this special designation.
Key among these is preserving the free flowing condition of the river, as well as other biological, historic, cultural, geologic or riparian features that make it unique. This wild and scenic corridor lies within a larger designated Area of Critical Environmental Concern, and the management effort will develop a joint management plan for both of these entities.
This section of the Amargosa River is home to two species of endemic desert fish, the pupfish and the speckled dace, and because it is a permanent flowing stream it is also a critical source of water for a wide array of wildlife.
The Amargosa Conservancy, a local nonprofit land trust, has been working with the BLM to move the planning effort forward. Another aspect of the plan is to allow for development of appropriate recreational opportunities such as hiking, birding, and horseback riding.
It is hoped that these type of sustainable activities will also act as an economic engine for local eco tourism based businesses in an economically depressed area.
For more information about this meeting, contact the BLM office at 951-697-5220, or by email at amargosa@blm.gov.





These people even the one who is the president of the Armagosa River Conservancy and owns the China Date ranch wants us out of the area. Even though he takes your money and sells you his goods knowing that you have travelled illegally on paved roads and his county maintained dirt road to get there he wants OHV's out of the Sperry Wash! If they get what they want it will leave no OHV trails for folks who come out with dirt tires and want to ride their quads, SXS or jeeps/trucks whatever. I can tell you right now that those people who want to go for a trail ride will intrude on the already closed areas surronding the dunes and it will bring HEAT down on us to either shut us down or FENCE the whole area. Of course once the fence is in place a judge orders an injunction and the last opening is closed and we allowed it to happen! We need to show up as a interested group of Stakeholders and wear a dumont shirt so they know who we are and be respectfull but get our point across. The meeting is Wed. Night @7 PM and is about an 1 hour 15 minute trip from vegas, Who is willing to take an evening to protect our rights? Let me know as I have some seats available and would really like to see some support for our side for a change at one of these meetings.

Terry




President Friends of Dumont Dunes
Nevada OHV representitive to the BLM Dumont Dunes DAC Sub-Group
President Friends of Dumont Dunes
Nevada OHV representitive to the BLM Dumont Dunes DAC Sub-Group

#2 sandawg

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 10:06 AM

I'd like to go Terry and if there are enough I can take 3 people in my crew cab besides what you take



I know for a fact that there are at least 25 or 30 pelple here in Vegas that should be interested enough to give up one evening to show our numbers at this meeting. It would be so cool to caravan a bunch of us and watch their faces when we pull up in our Dumont themed TEES!

How about it DDR folks, are you up for this??:woopitydoo:

Edited by sandawg, 05 September 2011 - 10:10 AM.

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#3 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 05:41 PM

Ok, This is stuff that I am interested in checking out. This is THIS wednesday?

I have to admit I don't really know about the Sperry Wash Area so my knowledge isn't very good. I also don't have a Dumont tee, but willing to get one, from.....??

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#4 ynot

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:20 PM

Ok, This is stuff that I am interested in checking out. This is THIS wednesday?

I have to admit I don't really know about the Sperry Wash Area so my knowledge isn't very good. I also don't have a Dumont tee, but willing to get one, from.....??



This is Wed. 09-14-2011. Just any kind of T-Shirt depicting your interest in off road would be fine.
President Friends of Dumont Dunes
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#5 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 07:33 PM

Ok, i see the date now in the thread... sorry for the blonde moment.

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#6 jalper

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 08:57 PM

It will be tuff but I am pretty sure that I will be there.

#7 dunefreak

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:18 AM

Ahh crap. Our buddy Andy Frasco only comes to town every few months and this meeting has to be the same night he is performing? I already promised we would go so I don't know if I can make it. I will spread the word with the dual sport group I ride with. I bet a few of them might show up.

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#8 ynot

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:28 AM

Ahh crap. Our buddy Andy Frasco only comes to town every few months and this meeting has to be the same night he is performing? I already promised we would go so I don't know if I can make it. I will spread the word with the dual sport group I ride with. I bet a few of them might show up.



Tuff choice, we could use your help but understand.
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#9 KrazeeMyke

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 02:30 PM

I will be there.

#10 sandawg

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 03:59 PM

Ahh crap. Our buddy Andy Frasco only comes to town every few months and this meeting has to be the same night he is performing? I already promised we would go so I don't know if I can make it. I will spread the word with the dual sport group I ride with. I bet a few of them might show up.




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#11 eli

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:10 PM

Posted Yesterday, 01:42 PM
These people even the one who is the president of the Armagosa River Conservancy and owns the China Date ranch wants us out of the area. Even though he takes your money and sells you his goods knowing that you have travelled illegally on paved roads and his county maintained dirt road to get there he wants OHV's out of the Sperry Wash! If they get what they want it will leave no OHV trails for folks who come out with dirt tires and want to ride their quads, SXS or jeeps/trucks whatever. I can tell you right now that those people who want to go for a trail ride will intrude on the already closed areas surronding the dunes and it will bring HEAT down on us to either shut us down or FENCE the whole area. Of course once the fence is in place a judge orders an injunction and the last opening is closed and we allowed it to happen! We need to show up as a interested group of Stakeholders and wear a dumont shirt so they know who we are and be respectfull but get our point across. The meeting is Wed. Night @7 PM and is about an 1 hour 15 minute trip from vegas, Who is willing to take an evening to protect our rights? Let me know as I have some seats available and would really like to see some support for our side for a change at one of these meetings.

Terry




President Friends of Dumont Dunes
Nevada OHV representitive to the BLM Dumont Dunes DAC Sub-Group


Unfortunately I have more pressing matters due to a death in the family and may not have time to formulate a comment nor rally the T&T troops. None the less I hope to attend.

This is and has never been about Sperry Wash. As the BLM closed the T&T grade to the south, posted wilderness signs to the west of the grade in the Dumont area when the wilderness is clearly defined as 50' east of the center-line of the grade, moved the Tecopa ACEC south 3 miles south to Sperry, scrapped it's plans to build a trail-head there and posted it as wilderness again west of the grade and built a fence along the grade which I highly doubt is in keeping with the 50' rule most people didn't give a rats a$$ because they thought it didn't affect them or thought if they worked with the BLM they wouldn't screw with them. I and the T&T group attempted to work with Barstow BLM and they still screwed us at Sperry and IMHO duners are next.

Surprise surprise they now want to close Sperry Wash not the least of which is because the Amaragosa Conservancy has gotten their hooks into old Tecopa which can accessed via Sperry Wash and Western Talc Rd. BTW did anybody mention that Sperry Wash was not actually a route but a road?

If you had been to China Ranch and actually read the sign at the trail-head to the T&T grade or visited Shoshone and stopped at new conservancy visitor center, or visited old Tecopa (not the more modern one if you can call it that) and wondered about the guard there you would have known the Amaragosa River Conservancy is well organized, well funded, and rising rapidly with the support of other tree hugger groups. If the wild and scenic river designation is used as an excuse to close the Sperry Wash crossings, how can you not suspect the Dumont Dune crossing is not really their target?

I doesn't surprise me that Brian Brown has become president of the Conservancy. As I pointed out in a former Tecopa thread his family owns more than a black water tank full from Amaragosa through Shoshone,Tecopa, to Baker and at least one business in Pahrump. Rumor had it that some a..hole dumped their tanks and trash in Tecopa. BTW not that a boycott wouldn't help but Brown and his family doesn't give a rat's a$$ about the goods they sell to duners I serious doubt that it amounts to much in their minds they however will remember forever the dumping. The Browns are well connected and respected by the authorities. He who has the gold makes the rules. IMHO staying out of closed areas is a given but a duner outside of closed areas had better be worried about passing gas.

The BLM is required to take public comment. Ignoring that comment and doing what they planned to do before they ever were required to take that comment has taken to an art form by the BLM. Their pockets are already hurting and I suspect attendance down will be down this year. I suggest attending the meeting and speaking out is important but if you want to make an impact with BLM Barstow you should consider forgoing this years season pass and organize as many group rides as possible to other non-fee or area's outside Barstow BLM coverage.

Eli

#12 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:59 PM

That is part of the whole problem with government crap anymore. All these treehuggers have the money and want to save some beetle or whatever. But that being said many offroaders are our worst enemy. The people that party too hard, ride dumb, dump garbage, ride outside of areas, and all the other stuff make us look bad. Just giving the treehuggers more power. I don't know why all the riding areas have to be sutdown, there have been studies of areas where military training has happened and 40 years later there is basically no trace. It's a desert area with rocks and sand. Man these peope piss me off.

Boycotting Dumont would most likely just lead to it being shutdown permanently, sooner. This would take another major riding area away not really leaving much for options. I don't know about the politics and i don't really give a sh*t about whoever this guy is. I am just learning about all the issues in dealing with all this. I am seeing that you are talking about the water/river crossing portion right before the paystation part. They want this shutdown to? I don't get why.

Please don't take anything i say as negative to anyone here. I am really new to all this and just don't know the full story. I am willing to listen and learn asking questions along the way. I am willing to help however I can.

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#13 ynot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:11 AM

Ok just to clear a few things up. The crossing to Dumont Dunes is included in the already passed Wild River bill as a recreation acess and can never be closed. The whole piece of land from just above the rossing down towards the highway127 is designated offroad OHV access and was written in the bill with a lot of assistance from Jerry Hubbard of San Bernadino who is on the sub-group. It should never be closed from this point on.
The battle is about the wild river bill's coverage of the Armagossa river which actually runs from Ash Meadows NV. 125 miles underground before popping up near the lovely town of Tecopa. There a couple of "endangered" species in Ash meadows that the Armagossa Conservency wants to protect. it makes no sense to me that that they worry about these "species" 125 miles away. The real truth here is that Mr. Brown and a lady by the name of Susan Sorrels who owns most of Shoshone want to make the towns of Shoshone and Tecopa the next new "in" spot for the ecotourist trade. The hole in the wall bed and breakfast on Mr. Brown's property charged several years ago $149.00 per night with only coffee and date bread for breakfast just a few years ago and it was told to me that they were full most of the winter. I would guess prices are up or at least the same and they are looking to expand their abilities to house more ecotourists.
That being said the off roaders who use Sperry wash trail/road and go to Mr. Brown's date ranch are only hurting our cause in two ways, one being that they are buying products from a dedicated anti off roader and secondly,are then are shown as abusing the law and traveling down to his ranch even though the road and surronding area are off limits and have been closed for years, it is all about the allmighty dollar folks.
I have had long talks with certain policy makers in the Barstow BLM office who have told me and they have never done me wrong yet that they have no intention of closing off access to Sperry wash trail/road. that this meeting is about how to protect the areas surronding it. Again I fear we will go back to the post & cable and I am always worried that the ecoterrorists will see post and cabling areas around Dumont as a victory. They will then move on to trying to get Dumont surronded by cable so all it will take is a 9th circut liberal court to pull the last cable and we are done.
So in summary we need to act like ladies and gentlemen at this meeting, we do not need any more negatitive attitude from them then they already have thanks to the black tank dumpers and people who leave or allow there trash to fly out of there vehicles. But we need to show up in numbers to scare the hell out of them and let them know that when it comes to anything around Dumont we are Interested and are willing to stand against their attempts to tell us what and where we can ride.
I can only ask that if you have something to say please make sure it pertains to the subject at hand not anything that really is not on the adgenda like fee's , LEO"s etc.or anything better suited for a sub group meeting. Please show up but show up and listen first then we will get our chance to answer and let them know are thoughts.

Hope to see you there,

Terry
President Friends of Dumont Dunes
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#14 dunefreak

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:52 AM

Ok just to clear a few things up. The crossing to Dumont Dunes is included in the already passed Wild River bill as a recreation acess and can never be closed. The whole piece of land from just above the rossing down towards the highway127 is designated offroad OHV access and was written in the bill with a lot of assistance from Jerry Hubbard of San Bernadino who is on the sub-group. It should never be closed from this point on.
The battle is about the wild river bill's coverage of the Armagossa river which actually runs from Ash Meadows NV. 125 miles underground before popping up near the lovely town of Tecopa. There a couple of "endangered" species in Ash meadows that the Armagossa Conservency wants to protect. it makes no sense to me that that they worry about these "species" 125 miles away. The real truth here is that Mr. Brown and a lady by the name of Susan Sorrels who owns most of Shoshone want to make the towns of Shoshone and Tecopa the next new "in" spot for the ecotourist trade. The hole in the wall bed and breakfast on Mr. Brown's property charged several years ago $149.00 per night with only coffee and date bread for breakfast just a few years ago and it was told to me that they were full most of the winter. I would guess prices are up or at least the same and they are looking to expand their abilities to house more ecotourists.
That being said the off roaders who use Sperry wash trail/road and go to Mr. Brown's date ranch are only hurting our cause in two ways, one being that they are buying products from a dedicated anti off roader and secondly,are then are shown as abusing the law and traveling down to his ranch even though the road and surronding area are off limits and have been closed for years, it is all about the allmighty dollar folks.
I have had long talks with certain policy makers in the Barstow BLM office who have told me and they have never done me wrong yet that they have no intention of closing off access to Sperry wash trail/road. that this meeting is about how to protect the areas surronding it. Again I fear we will go back to the post & cable and I am always worried that the ecoterrorists will see post and cabling areas around Dumont as a victory. They will then move on to trying to get Dumont surronded by cable so all it will take is a 9th circut liberal court to pull the last cable and we are done.
So in summary we need to act like ladies and gentlemen at this meeting, we do not need any more negatitive attitude from them then they already have thanks to the black tank dumpers and people who leave or allow there trash to fly out of there vehicles. But we need to show up in numbers to scare the hell out of them and let them know that when it comes to anything around Dumont we are Interested and are willing to stand against their attempts to tell us what and where we can ride.
I can only ask that if you have something to say please make sure it pertains to the subject at hand not anything that really is not on the adgenda like fee's , LEO"s etc.or anything better suited for a sub group meeting. Please show up but show up and listen first then we will get our chance to answer and let them know are thoughts.

Hope to see you there,

Terry


Well said Terry and thank you for clearing that all up. :clap:

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#15 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 02:43 PM

That was a great help to me thanks Terry. Being such a new comer I am not sure what i have to "say" in the meeting itself but can listen, learn, and support the folks that are on our side trying to help.

I am on the HOA board for my community and I feel this gives me such a small idea of what those people on the other side of that table must feel. Their overall feelings will have a huge affect in what and how things happen, along with the laws, which they can always change in time. Going in and acting in a respectful manner will help our position for sure.

Treehuggers or not, i just dont see how us riding the dunes hurts anything. But i guess that comes in with the tank dumping and trash dumping in the areas.

I don't know the area, but stopping the OHVs from getting to and buying from Mr. Brown's store would be a very good thing.

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#16 sandawg

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:57 PM

:2cents: :old: :usa:




Terry, The more information we have to oppose these special interest folks the better. A well informed and prepared defence is always more effective. Can you share your expertise on how and what we can say or do or not say or do to make this meeting come out in our favor.

I admit that after the origional message I thought they were thinking about trying to close down the existing trail by the entrance road. along the river to the T and T

Share what you know to make us more informed and better able to help sway the BLM and potentionally embarase the rich, sellf serving people at this meeting.

My questions are. What area is going to be discussed? How does it affect us as Dumont visitors and off roading in general. How will it affect the general public including off road enthusiasts. etc. etc.

Prior to retiring I was very involved ( information gathering) in the ongoings of the City Council and County Commission. The most effective way to share your point is to have one spokesperson with a list of the attendees concerns. The worst thing is to have lots of people that want to share their point and make it an all night affair and are driven by emotions rather than facts and specific points . Items tend to be repeated over and over. People in attendance that agree with the speaker of our points of view, at the conclusion of our speakers comments, would then be asked to raise theit hands to show agreement with the speaker.

In my 40 plus years in the business world and in management I leaned that a 1 hour meeting is indeed a meeting. Anything longer than that is an event!

A well informed and courtious group makes friends not enemys. We need all the friends we can earn in these meetings! People in numbers are one of the most effective ways to show support of a particular point of view. A large turnout of DDR folks and a couple of self serving land barrons won't stand a chance of impressing the BLM.

Thanks,

Pat
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IN A WELL PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN BROADSIDE,
THOROUGHLY USED UP, TOTALLY WORN OUT, AND LOUDLY SHOUTING,



HOLY SH*T.....WHAT A RIDE !

#17 ynot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:25 PM

:2cents: :old: :usa:




Terry, The more information we have to oppose these special interest folks the better. A well informed and prepared defence is always more effective. Can you share your expertise on how and what we can say or do or not say or do to make this meeting come out in our favor.

I admit that after the origional message I thought they were thinking about trying to close down the existing trail by the entrance road. along the river to the T and T

Share what you know to make us more informed and better able to help sway the BLM and potentionally embarase the rich, sellf serving people at this meeting.

My questions are. What area is going to be discussed? How does it affect us as Dumont visitors and off roading in general. How will it affect the general public including off road enthusiasts. etc. etc.

Prior to retiring I was very involved ( information gathering) in the ongoings of the City Council and County Commission. The most effective way to share your point is to have one spokesperson with a list of the attendees concerns. The worst thing is to have lots of people that want to share their point and make it an all night affair and are driven by emotions rather than facts and specific points . Items tend to be repeated over and over. People in attendance that agree with the speaker of our points of view, at the conclusion of our speakers comments, would then be asked to raise theit hands to show agreement with the speaker.

In my 40 plus years in the business world and in management I leaned that a 1 hour meeting is indeed a meeting. Anything longer than that is an event!

A well informed and courtious group makes friends not enemys. We need all the friends we can earn in these meetings! People in numbers are one of the most effective ways to show support of a particular point of view. A large turnout of DDR folks and a couple of self serving land barrons won't stand a chance of impressing the BLM.

Thanks,

Pat



Pat, I agree with you on every single point, that is why I was looking for everyone to be polite, listen and then speak our piece.
I actually spent some time on google today looking up the Armagosa Conservency, Brian brown and Susan Sorrels, and the wild river bill that passed and was signed into law not to long ago. This will give you some insight into what and who we are dealing with.
I think they would love to close Sperry wash trail/road but I don't believe BLM is in any way inclined to do that. They do though have to find away to protect the area surronding the trail, That's the rub, the greenies will just want the easy way out by closing it down and then can declare another OHV area closed off for all the world's protection. What we want is a reasonable way to keep people on OHV's from encroaching the area that the law protects. Mainly the areas that people are using off the Sperry wash trail to either take a short cut to the wash or to the dunes from the dunes to the wash. I am sure they will want to close the mines at the upper end of the wash and they are full of chemicals that lay all over the ground. However I am not going to give an inch on it unless we get something out of it. it is a series of negoations. I am not to sure exactly where they are going to attack so that why I want us to listen and then go from there.
If we come off as a bunch of rowdy's we will get no where with these people, they think they know what's best for all I mean look who they voted in for president! I think it will be an interesting meeting and i am looking forward to a good show. Polite but firm. If everybody does a little reading on those subjects we will come off as we should be a united, educated concerned group and that's what we want/ Happy Reading!
If you need anymore on this please don't anybody hesitate to ask, i am not an expert on it but I can reach out to some fols who are and will have the answers before the meeting.

Terry

Edited by ynot, 07 September 2011 - 07:26 PM.

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#18 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:06 PM

Good thinking Terry, It's quite a bit of reading to. I do think that not supporting these people that are against us is important, to a point. I think it at least makes sense whenever possible. Not shopping at the Brown's store and Shoshone Propane in Pahrump, owned by Susan Sorrells is a good start. Many of the people on the Amargosa Conservancy are pretty heavy hitters with Masters Degrees, lawyers, time in Washington, D.C., and ears in many layers of government. We definitely need to be on our game and united.

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#19 ynot

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:14 AM

Good thinking Terry, It's quite a bit of reading to. I do think that not supporting these people that are against us is important, to a point. I think it at least makes sense whenever possible. Not shopping at the Brown's store and Shoshone Propane in Pahrump, owned by Susan Sorrells is a good start. Many of the people on the Amargosa Conservancy are pretty heavy hitters with Masters Degrees, lawyers, time in Washington, D.C., and ears in many layers of government. We definitely need to be on our game and united.



I agree and as you can see in the material the CBD and other organizations are taking tis to heart also.
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#20 KEN

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:37 PM

I agree and as you can see in the material the CBD and other organizations are taking tis to heart also.



Terry, I will be there, I can ride or drive depending on the amount of people going.

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#21 eli

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:04 PM

Ok just to clear a few things up. The crossing to Dumont Dunes is included in the already passed Wild River bill as a recreation acess and can never be closed.

I have had long talks with certain policy makers in the Barstow BLM office who have told me and they have never done me wrong yet that they have no intention of closing off access to Sperry wash trail/road. that this meeting is about how to protect the areas surronding it. Again I fear we will go back to the post & cable and I am always worried that the ecoterrorists will see post and cabling areas around Dumont as a victory. They will then move on to trying to get Dumont surronded by cable so all it will take is a 9th circut liberal court to pull the last cable and we are done.


To the first point above yea right....one judge and your crossing is closed. Care to count the roads closed by the BLM to private in-holdings and mining claims in the area? Have you been to Valjean lately? Again Sperry Wash was/is a road. There is still pavement for anyone to see that elects to travel the route or read a little of the history of the area on how they got the ore from the mines at Tecopa to UP after the T&T stopped operations.

To the second you can either take my word for their plans for a parking area, vault toilets, trail-head and historical signage at Sperry or I will attempt to locate the video tape of Barstow BLM telling T&T group about them. What they did was post wilderness signs again west of the grade. Why don't you take a little tour along the T&T count the number of wilderness signs west of it including at Sperry, and read the Desert Protection Act of 1994. Then go ask "certain policy makers" WTF. I did and got nothing but BS for answers. It wasn't your area of interest they built yet anouther of their post and cabling areas so I suppose you and most duners could give a rat's a$$.

You would think that after the Act was passed in 1994 by 2000 when that video tape was made they would know where the closed areas were and were the posts and cables were being built. You would be wrong. A couple of years later on Public Lands Day I meet the manager of the Barstow office in Sperry Wash. After chatting for a bit he asked if I had come across a fencing crew. I replied that I had and gave him directions because he didn't know where they were. BTW the Brown family of which the owners of China Ranch and Shoshone are members may be raising tree huggers but they certainly weren't the first in the area. At least one of the leaders partly responsible for the Wild River, protect the critters, march the Tecopa ACEC south three miles and the Tecopa ACEC itself which came about in about 1974 was sitting in the passenger seat beside him. 50 angry tree huggers in the Barstow BLM office is something they prefer didn't happen. 50 angry duners would be considered an illegal gathering.

So if you if you are one of the duners that think that crossing can never be closed I suggest reading the Desert Protection Act of 1994 and taking note of what we all have lost around Dumont since then or if you could give a rat's a$$ and can't or won't read perhaps you should go to the top of Comp Hill dig a deep hole place your head in it and drop your pants. You shouldn't have to wait much longer for those that have never done you wrong if they have not been already been transferred and replaced by those that will.

Eli

#22 Adam @ GTP Off Road

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:33 PM

I have to agree a little with Eli on some points. Of course I always want to hope for the best, ultimately the offroaders are losing this battle more and more with the treehuggers.

A bill that says one thing, can easily be changed by one judge closing whatever they want. We have to try make it work in our favor still.

I still haven't heard if there is a reason they want to keep OHV out of Dumont. Other then just keeping OHV out of everywhere.

If they keep closing all these areas there will be more people out of work in the OHV field. If nothing else it's a good angle.

50 treehuggers are trying to save the world, 50 offroaders want to get drunk and fight each other. Let's face it offroaders have a bad rap in many areas caused by the bad apples. We also need to try and control these bad apples ourselves, somehow.

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#23 ynot

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:27 PM

To the first point above yea right....one judge and your crossing is closed. Care to count the roads closed by the BLM to private in-holdings and mining claims in the area? Have you been to Valjean lately? Again Sperry Wash was/is a road. There is still pavement for anyone to see that elects to travel the route or read a little of the history of the area on how they got the ore from the mines at Tecopa to UP after the T&T stopped operations.

To the second you can either take my word for their plans for a parking area, vault toilets, trail-head and historical signage at Sperry or I will attempt to locate the video tape of Barstow BLM telling T&T group about them. What they did was post wilderness signs again west of the grade. Why don't you take a little tour along the T&T count the number of wilderness signs west of it including at Sperry, and read the Desert Protection Act of 1994. Then go ask "certain policy makers" WTF. I did and got nothing but BS for answers. It wasn't your area of interest they built yet anouther of their post and cabling areas so I suppose you and most duners could give a rat's a$$.

You would think that after the Act was passed in 1994 by 2000 when that video tape was made they would know where the closed areas were and were the posts and cables were being built. You would be wrong. A couple of years later on Public Lands Day I meet the manager of the Barstow office in Sperry Wash. After chatting for a bit he asked if I had come across a fencing crew. I replied that I had and gave him directions because he didn't know where they were. BTW the Brown family of which the owners of China Ranch and Shoshone are members may be raising tree huggers but they certainly weren't the first in the area. At least one of the leaders partly responsible for the Wild River, protect the critters, march the Tecopa ACEC south three miles and the Tecopa ACEC itself which came about in about 1974 was sitting in the passenger seat beside him. 50 angry tree huggers in the Barstow BLM office is something they prefer didn't happen. 50 angry duners would be considered an illegal gathering.

So if you if you are one of the duners that think that crossing can never be closed I suggest reading the Desert Protection Act of 1994 and taking note of what we all have lost around Dumont since then or if you could give a rat's a$$ and can't or won't read perhaps you should go to the top of Comp Hill dig a deep hole place your head in it and drop your pants. You shouldn't have to wait much longer for those that have never done you wrong if they have not been already been transferred and replaced by those that will.

Eli



I saw this post this morning and wrote a reply which fortuately was deleted when I hit a wrong key. However after a couple cups of coffee and some thinking on the subject I remembered that this is not the first Negative nancy post you have had. Seems to me a few years ago we had a heated discussion on this board that we eventually took to PM status and then to phone conversation(s) I know you talked about how you had been involved in dealings with the goverment and could tell that you were very negative and wanted another fight with them. Maybe you lost the previous ones I don't know. You told me you had staff and were a successful financial consultant and had staff and would use them to carry on the battle. In real life what you were looking for was the inclusion of a couple of your ASA buddies onto the board of directors for the Friends of Dumont elections when we were just getting it started after Ed Waldhiem had asked a few people to take it over as he did not have the time to run it anymore. If I remember right you and your ASA buddies had a hard on for Vicki Warren who was voted in as President and that the fact none of your cohorts made the board you became dis-interested and told me you would not support FoDD as long as "she" had anything to do with it.
Well we continued on without all your promised support and although Vicki is now a non voting advisor to the board of directors this is the first I have seen of you.
You always stand on old lost causes that we can do nothing about. All the surronding land to Dumont that is closed and has been closed for many years is on the Federal register and cannot be undone. That would be like trying to re-open Kelso Dunes, it's never going to happen.
Now on to Sperry wash I know for a fact as I watched the actions of Gerry Hubbard, Ed Waldheim and Randy Banis work dilgently to get the access to Dumont permently worded into the Wild River Wilderness bill. It is and always will be open as Sperry Wash is on the Recreational list of the bill and cannot be changed to either Wild or Wilderness. That area and the wording to get it in was pushed through with these gentlemens insistince to Congressman Howard P. "Buck" Mckeon who was a co-sponser to this bill. The only voice of reason of the authors who included Barbara Boxer and other enviromenlist Senators and congressmen. Without the many long airplane flights to Washington DC to personally meet with Congressman Mckeon we would have had a chance of losing the 5 miles of "Recreational designation" to the Armagossa river which includes and precludes any change in that designation.
I am not saying that there could be a fight about it down the line but we stand a greater chance since the law was passed with that designation then if we had to fight to keep the access road open if it wasn't included.
As to your claim of a video about a trailhead and pit toilets etc. It is well known and documented that the federal goverment does not have nor will likely have any such funds for this for a very long time and from a personal standpoint I have no issue with what they want to do. Why should trail riders have to use bushes etc. for their personal needs. One of the reasons this meeting coming up is to figure out how to stop the random egress and ingress into Sperry Wash from either the dune side or the north side near Tecopa. If Off roaders would stay on the designated trail we wouldn't even be having this conversation, again we are our own worst enemies.
If you ran into the manager of Barstow BLM in Sperry wash and that person was a male, well then he wasn't the Barstow Area manager who is female and has had the position for at least 8 years that I know of. So I don't have any idea who you talked to but again if you were the Barstow area manager and had a crew out working, I am pretty sure wether male or female would have known the exact spot the crew was working that particular day as the Field Office has millions of acres to cover and I doubt the Manager is in the field on a dailey basis.

The 50' section to the the west of the T&T rail bed has been closed for so many years I really can't remember when it happened. The problem is that people do not read nor obey these posted signs and encroach into closed areas thus causing disputes with the CBD and other "green" organizations. Again we are our worst enemy.
As to the 50 duners not being welcomed as usual your uninformed as when we have had Sat meetings at the Barstow BLM office all the citizens were more than welcome they were appreciated. If 50 greenies showed up at a different meeting I would expect a federal office to treat them with the same respect and courtesy they have showed us. Don't believe me? Ask the 40 or so who came to the Sat meeting about 18 months ago.

BTW I would like to see the video, not that it matters but I would like to see you live up to something you have said and written in here as you bash those who work their tails off to make sure that what can be done is getting done.

As to my personal opinion of your post, when someone who stands on the outside and casts stones at the few who fight for the cause and just so you know MY CAUSE IS DUMONT DUNES OHV AREA. plain and simple. I want to make sure these dunes are available for us now and for generations to come whether it be in gas machines or electric dune buggies i don't care. It is a piece of heaven on earth for me and many who use it and treat it right. For us that use our time,our own money and effort to put on clean-ups and other events your slander is reprehensible.

Lastly in closing I always find it comical that such people such as you and your negative ilk can stand behind a keyboard and throw stones but can't pick up a extra bag of trash or help another duner out. So I would appreciate it if you wouldn't plant your head on Comp Hill as it would deface the area and that my friend is what we are trying to prevent.
I apoligize for the extremely long post but the readers need to know from where you come from and that you are a negative Nancy not a do'er. To bad you picked the wrong team but that happens. Anytime your willing to pick your self up out of the dirt we would welcome your help in any fight we may be involved in. As you may not be aware of it's typical that 95% of the work is done by less than 80% of the group, in this case it's probably less than 5% doing the work.

With all due respect,

Terry

Edited by ynot, 09 September 2011 - 01:28 PM.

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#24 sandawg

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 04:46 PM

Come on Terry, Tell us what you really think of negativity and the people that condem or ridicule the few folks that are committed to help and not just blow smoke! :laughing:


I truely hope people that frequent this site will be there on Wed evening, especially the ones from Henderson and Las Vegas. The people that do read this thread should call their friends that dune, and don't spend as much time on here, and make sure they know about it and it's importance. The meeting might not be directly about Dumont Dunes but it's a chance to show BLM that there are those of us that care enough about the take over of public lands by a few rich, very motivated people that are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Interest in getting more involved could be improved.

Apathy is a bad thing at it's showing it's ugly head way to much lately. As I said. I can take a couple or three people with me on Wednesday. You can park at my place, lots of parking. I'm close to 95 and College. PM me if you need directions or to committ to come along.

The truth be known, I'm so damn old that most radical changes will be happening long after I'm unable to Dune anymore or my remains have been spread over the Dunes.:ahhhhh: If you think about it if you get old and can't walk much and they keep closing areas to vehicle traffic your sunk. Only the young tree huggers or people with horses will be able to access these places, stay at home and pout because you didn't care enough to get incolved or just gave up!



:blah: :blah: :blah:

That comment wasn't just about this meeting it pertains to all of them coming up in months and years to come.



My point is, why should I even care at all about this crap being stuffed down our throats. Because I do care and I can!

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The soap box is being put away now. No more lenghly posts from me, just show up if you possibly can!

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#25 eli

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:24 PM

I saw this post this morning and wrote a reply which fortuately was deleted when I hit a wrong key. However after a couple cups of coffee and some thinking on the subject I remembered that this is not the first Negative nancy post you have had. Seems to me a few years ago we had a heated discussion on this board that we eventually took to PM status and then to phone conversation(s) I know you talked about how you had been involved in dealings with the goverment and could tell that you were very negative and wanted another fight with them. Maybe you lost the previous ones I don't know. You told me you had staff and were a successful financial consultant and had staff and would use them to carry on the battle. In real life what you were looking for was the inclusion of a couple of your ASA buddies onto the board of directors for the Friends of Dumont elections when we were just getting it started after Ed Waldhiem had asked a few people to take it over as he did not have the time to run it anymore. If I remember right you and your ASA buddies had a hard on for Vicki Warren who was voted in as President and that the fact none of your cohorts made the board you became dis-interested and told me you would not support FoDD as long as "she" had anything to do with it.
Well we continued on without all your promised support and although Vicki is now a non voting advisor to the board of directors this is the first I have seen of you.
You always stand on old lost causes that we can do nothing about. All the surronding land to Dumont that is closed and has been closed for many years is on the Federal register and cannot be undone. That would be like trying to re-open Kelso Dunes, it's never going to happen.
Now on to Sperry wash I know for a fact as I watched the actions of Gerry Hubbard, Ed Waldheim and Randy Banis work dilgently to get the access to Dumont permently worded into the Wild River Wilderness bill. It is and always will be open as Sperry Wash is on the Recreational list of the bill and cannot be changed to either Wild or Wilderness. That area and the wording to get it in was pushed through with these gentlemens insistince to Congressman Howard P. "Buck" Mckeon who was a co-sponser to this bill. The only voice of reason of the authors who included Barbara Boxer and other enviromenlist Senators and congressmen. Without the many long airplane flights to Washington DC to personally meet with Congressman Mckeon we would have had a chance of losing the 5 miles of "Recreational designation" to the Armagossa river which includes and precludes any change in that designation.
I am not saying that there could be a fight about it down the line but we stand a greater chance since the law was passed with that designation then if we had to fight to keep the access road open if it wasn't included.
As to your claim of a video about a trailhead and pit toilets etc. It is well known and documented that the federal goverment does not have nor will likely have any such funds for this for a very long time and from a personal standpoint I have no issue with what they want to do. Why should trail riders have to use bushes etc. for their personal needs. One of the reasons this meeting coming up is to figure out how to stop the random egress and ingress into Sperry Wash from either the dune side or the north side near Tecopa. If Off roaders would stay on the designated trail we wouldn't even be having this conversation, again we are our own worst enemies.
If you ran into the manager of Barstow BLM in Sperry wash and that person was a male, well then he wasn't the Barstow Area manager who is female and has had the position for at least 8 years that I know of. So I don't have any idea who you talked to but again if you were the Barstow area manager and had a crew out working, I am pretty sure wether male or female would have known the exact spot the crew was working that particular day as the Field Office has millions of acres to cover and I doubt the Manager is in the field on a dailey basis.

The 50' section to the the west of the T&T rail bed has been closed for so many years I really can't remember when it happened. The problem is that people do not read nor obey these posted signs and encroach into closed areas thus causing disputes with the CBD and other "green" organizations. Again we are our worst enemy.
As to the 50 duners not being welcomed as usual your uninformed as when we have had Sat meetings at the Barstow BLM office all the citizens were more than welcome they were appreciated. If 50 greenies showed up at a different meeting I would expect a federal office to treat them with the same respect and courtesy they have showed us. Don't believe me? Ask the 40 or so who came to the Sat meeting about 18 months ago.

BTW I would like to see the video, not that it matters but I would like to see you live up to something you have said and written in here as you bash those who work their tails off to make sure that what can be done is getting done.

As to my personal opinion of your post, when someone who stands on the outside and casts stones at the few who fight for the cause and just so you know MY CAUSE IS DUMONT DUNES OHV AREA. plain and simple. I want to make sure these dunes are available for us now and for generations to come whether it be in gas machines or electric dune buggies i don't care. It is a piece of heaven on earth for me and many who use it and treat it right. For us that use our time,our own money and effort to put on clean-ups and other events your slander is reprehensible.

Lastly in closing I always find it comical that such people such as you and your negative ilk can stand behind a keyboard and throw stones but can't pick up a extra bag of trash or help another duner out. So I would appreciate it if you wouldn't plant your head on Comp Hill as it would deface the area and that my friend is what we are trying to prevent.
I apoligize for the extremely long post but the readers need to know from where you come from and that you are a negative Nancy not a do'er. To bad you picked the wrong team but that happens. Anytime your willing to pick your self up out of the dirt we would welcome your help in any fight we may be involved in. As you may not be aware of it's typical that 95% of the work is done by less than 80% of the group, in this case it's probably less than 5% doing the work.

With all due respect,

Terry


Terry

With more than due respect, your memory is as bad as your math. I don't know what the heck you are talking about. You and I have never spoken by PM by phone or in person. The T&T group has never had the funding staff or pull to stop the BLM from doing what they darn well pleased. Nor have I ever been a successful financial consultant or an unsuccessful one for that matter. If the present manager is a female and has been there 8 years then the manager I speak of was clearly before her. Again Barstow BLM presented the Sperry Wash trailhead plan in 2000. (Now that I have returned home from the death in my family my notes clearly show it was posted west of the grade in first in 2000, 20001 and 2002. You do keep notes of your conversations with those that have never done you wrong don't you?) It’s still posted there to the best of my knowledge which was last season. Again please ask those who have never done you wrong by what Act of Congress was that done? Apparently the female manager wasn't there yet. I'll expect you to eat your own words publicly on this forum.

I could give a crap if there was ever funding for the trail head at Sperry. I give a crap that Bartstow BLM has felt and continues to feel (apparently including those have never done you wrong) free to post as wilderness west of the grade. Frankly it scares the heck out of me that you don’t know anything about where the wilderness is or by what Act of Congress it got there. If you expect people to stay out of wilderness GET IT POSTED RIGHT. Keep the fences from destroying what I enjoy most and that's the grade. Sperry Wash looks like a LA parking lot with all the posts and cable. BTW I also dune but am most active with the T&T group that I started apparently long before your time.

I'm sorry you feel that the only do'ers are those in YOUR group. You are very sadly mistaken but that's the one reason the greenies are so successful. It sickens me to see the trash that's left at Comp Hill and I have picked up a bit and towed a duner or two back to camp including a young child in Sperry Wash with a broken down quad that never should have been there alone and without water in the first place. Exactly how much trash have you picked up on the T&T grade? You won't see many railfans east or for that matter west of the grade as they are there to follow the Tonopah & Tidewater. If you choose to pick nicks it's duners that's are outside of the approved areas not railfans. Perhaps that’s a position you would prefer I take on Wednesday.

Previous loses....yes there have been a few:

The Tecopa ACEC

The post and wire 3 miles before you even get to that ACEC

Valjean Wilderness cutting the grade to Riggs

Wilderness posting on the grade south of the North Pole

The wilderness posting west of the Dumont Wye.

Yet even more post and in Sperry Wash

Wilderness posting west of the grade at Sperry

Wilderness postings west of cuts and north of the filled bridge.

But never mind Terry it will never happen to you and next time you attack someone please get your facts right. I stand corrected, your head is clearly not in the sand at the top of comp hill.

Eli

Edited by eli, 10 September 2011 - 06:27 PM.


#26 ynot

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 08:40 PM

Terry

With more than due respect, your memory is as bad as your math. I don't know what the heck you are talking about. You and I have never spoken by PM by phone or in person. The T&T group has never had the funding staff or pull to stop the BLM from doing what they darn well pleased. Nor have I ever been a successful financial consultant or an unsuccessful one for that matter. If the present manager is a female and has been there 8 years then the manager I speak of was clearly before her. Again Barstow BLM presented the Sperry Wash trailhead plan in 2000. (Now that I have returned home from the death in my family my notes clearly show it was posted west of the grade in first in 2000, 20001 and 2002. You do keep notes of your conversations with those that have never done you wrong don't you?) Itís still posted there to the best of my knowledge which was last season. Again please ask those who have never done you wrong by what Act of Congress was that done? Apparently the female manager wasn't there yet. I'll expect you to eat your own words publicly on this forum.

I could give a crap if there was ever funding for the trail head at Sperry. I give a crap that Bartstow BLM has felt and continues to feel (apparently including those have never done you wrong) free to post as wilderness west of the grade. Frankly it scares the heck out of me that you donít know anything about where the wilderness is or by what Act of Congress it got there. If you expect people to stay out of wilderness GET IT POSTED RIGHT. Keep the fences from destroying what I enjoy most and that's the grade. Sperry Wash looks like a LA parking lot with all the posts and cable. BTW I also dune but am most active with the T&T group that I started apparently long before your time.

I'm sorry you feel that the only do'ers are those in YOUR group. You are very sadly mistaken but that's the one reason the greenies are so successful. It sickens me to see the trash that's left at Comp Hill and I have picked up a bit and towed a duner or two back to camp including a young child in Sperry Wash with a broken down quad that never should have been there alone and without water in the first place. Exactly how much trash have you picked up on the T&T grade? You won't see many railfans east or for that matter west of the grade as they are there to follow the Tonopah & Tidewater. If you choose to pick nicks it's duners that's are outside of the approved areas not railfans. Perhaps thatís a position you would prefer I take on Wednesday.

Previous loses....yes there have been a few:

The Tecopa ACEC

The post and wire 3 miles before you even get to that ACEC

Valjean Wilderness cutting the grade to Riggs

Wilderness posting on the grade south of the North Pole

The wilderness posting west of the Dumont Wye.

Yet even more post and in Sperry Wash

Wilderness posting west of the grade at Sperry

Wilderness postings west of cuts and north of the filled bridge.

But never mind Terry it will never happen to you and next time you attack someone please get your facts right. I stand corrected, your head is clearly not in the sand at the top of comp hill.

Eli



Eli, I will apoligize right here right now if that wasn't you that I had those conversations with. Negative people all seem to run together in my mind and no I don't keep notes on BS conversations that do no good for anybody.
As far as you being more involved in the T&T, I am sorrry but I am not and have no plans to be. i have enough on my plate at this time. However you came on a Dumont Dunes web site and told us to expect to get screwed. The truth is it sounds like you have been extremelly unsuccessful in your battles on the T&T and other areas of your interest. Maybe you should have asked the duners for help long ago and we could have all come together under one banner. I was not involved in the fight to keep Dumont open until about 7-8 years ago. Before that I was just like most and that is I just wanted to go duning and hang out with friends and have a good time. Fortunely I was asked to help in the operation of a fledgling group called Friends of Dumont Dunes. My focus has been there ever since. Keeping the CBD from closing the area due to a lizard and other BS attempts have been our focus.
I was also very lucky to be asked to join the TRT for Dumont and BLM as a OHV representive for the state of Nevada. Might have been because I was the only one who applied but then again where were you and why did you not jump on the chance to get closer to BLM and to try to right all the injustices you say hapened on your watch?
The BLM is going to continue to post signage and post and cable the area west of the T&T as directed by federal law. Not much you can do after the law is passed. Our best fight is before the law is passed by congress and signed by the president. That's why we are willing to work with the BLM and the surronding area iinterests to keep the balance of their interests and ours. Do I trust them, nope I learned a long time ago upon realizing how much politics are involved in a non political position. Will BLM screw us over, I doubt it as Barstow BLM needs Dumont to survive to keep that office open and operating. You see Dumont is the only well run fee demo operation of any of the Ca. OHV area's. We are used as a model for other dune/fee areas on how to retain the majority of the fee money instead of losing 37% to the vendors as they do in Glamis.
The encroachment west of the TRT and in the surronding areas including Sperry wash is a mix of duners, railheads as you call them and other people who either don't know or don't care about staying out of those areas and that is what brings us to battles like this.
It almost sounds like we are on the same team but totally on different coasts. I am sorry that you were unable to stop the Federal Goverment from closing out areas you didn't want closed but blaming BLM is like blaming the fire department for not saving the pad after the fire, BLM is a arm of the Federal goverment but it IS DIRECTED by Washington on what areas of concern they must close, manage and otherwise care for.
The Barstow area manager is a very reasonable person and in the long period of time I have had dealings with her she has always kept her word and has always had an open mind on things we brought before her. But you canot blame her for posting signs and cabling off closed areas that have been closed due to the Endangered Species act and other Wilderness actions that the CBD and others have successfully gotten passed. Maybe if you had reached out to CORVA, Blue ribbon Colition and other various land advocates you all may have been more successful.
And just so you know Randy Banis who is the chair of the DAC is a huge fan of the T&T and that whole area. I can tell you that he is extremelly well informed about what has happened out there for a very long time, well before I got involved. If you would like an introduction I would be glad to do that for you, he may be able to clear up some misconceptions that I believe you may have about the BLM and their role in all this. I am not a BLM lover but I am a fan of working with someone who has all the power instead of trying to hit them in the head with a hammer everytime I talk to them. Just a different approach I guess?
Again I think we may be closer on some issues then it looks like and I have no ill feelings towards you but again you came on a duners web site and tried to blame duners for the issues you have had in the past before most of us became aware of the issues and became involved in keeping DUMONT open.
I appreciate you picking up trash and helping out a child in the wash(something I hope we would all do) and I invite you to attend the 10th annual FoDD clean-up in March 2012 to see duners working hand in hand with BLM and each other. Just so you know it's the only free weekend of the year. I think that shows how much appreciation of BLM to our attempts to help them.
I closing I have read the Wild river Wilderness bill and am well aware of the 3 designations of the Armagossa river. You need to know that the 5 mile section starting 100 feet east of the Dumont dune crossing starts the "recreation " designation and it continues for 5 miles west of that crossing towards SR127. This again was specifically written into this law by Congressmen McKeon to protect that crossing.
If you want to try to blame duners as the cause of the intrusions into the closed areas on Wed. your more than welcome to however be very aware that your tactics may backfire and it will leave both groups, railfans and duners looking poorly. We need to come together in front of the people in Tecopa as a unified group of concerned OFF_ROADERS. Placing blame on one side or the other just does exactly what they want and have been successful in doing over the last many years when all this land was lost. We have to become one and stay that way to win against the true bastards of this issue not the duners and not the BLM but the Eco-Terroists that have to be stopped.
Again my apoligies to you if it was not you in those old conversations. Again it has been many years and many computers ago, so not all e mails and other notes have been saved or kept from unfotunetly being lost. A computer whiz i am not.
Just to make one last point many of my friends have names for me but be very aware i don't think anyone of them think I have my head anywhere but on my shoulders and my eyes/vision on the horizon of keeping Dumont and as much land open as I can.

Terry
PS. My condolences on the loss in your family. Having been thriugh that more than I care to think about.Ii know the pain and feel for you and yours. My best to your family in these difficult times.

TA
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#27 eli

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 07:37 AM

Terry

My attacking the duners at the meeting (of which I have an interest admittedly not as great as yours) would serve about as much purpose as your attack on the wrong person.

I did reach out to many groups, attempted to work with the BLM and attempted to find some common ground with the greenies. I understand that Sperry Wash is a Federally approved route and I've watched that route get narrower and narrower over the years. I'm not happy about that but that's a bell rung. I'm not interested in it getting any narrower nor further wilderness postings south of there and west of the grade where the acts are more clear.

Years ago I lead a small group of less than a half dozen vehicles along the T&T. I (we) were approached by a BLM LEO and read the riot act for being in a closed area. I had done my research and had contacted the wilderness expert in the BLM office. Finally I asked the LEO if she knew him. She replied that he was in the back seat of the SUV. I approached the SUV and the back window come down about a half of inch. I introduced myself and asked if I had miss-understood him in any way on the phone. He replied I had not. I asked what the LEOs problem was and he did not reply. I returned to the LEO and told her I couldn't stop her from giving us tickets and taking our vehicles but as confirmed by the expert this wasn't EVEN BLM land let alone wilderness and pointed to my gps. A short time later the greenie was with the BLM Manager was coming from a closed area looking for the only fencing crew IMHO to show it off to her. I have no longer any respect for the BLM.

If you think I'm negative so be it. This isn't about bad people being were they shouldn't be. That's the excuse and that's the history. I do expect the Dumont Duners to continue to get screwed. That's not an attack that's an opinion although somewhat different from yours. You attacked the wrong guy. Apology accepted. When I'm in a better place I might actually have a conversation with you but thus far I haven't. We are in fact from the same ocean but miles apart with our methods. I don't hit the BLM with a pipe neither do I trust them with good reason. The BLM is in fact the power but only in their own mind. They are supposed to be managing the lands for the people. Problem is that we the people are going to continue to get what we always have gotten as long as we continue to do what we have always done which unfortunately wasn't enough. As I said before the BLM has taken ignoring public comment meetings to an art form. It's about time for we the people to tell them NOT ANOTHER INCH and not "well if we let them fence the T&T that doesn't affect me and maybe they will stop there." They won't. I've been there and I've done that and it didn't work.

Eli

Edited by eli, 11 September 2011 - 07:40 AM.


#28 ynot

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 08:44 AM

Terry

My attacking the duners at the meeting (of which I have an interest admittedly not as great as yours) would serve about as much purpose as your attack on the wrong person.

I did reach out to many groups, attempted to work with the BLM and attempted to find some common ground with the greenies. I understand that Sperry Wash is a Federally approved route and I've watched that route get narrower and narrower over the years. I'm not happy about that but that's a bell rung. I'm not interested in it getting any narrower nor further wilderness postings south of there and west of the grade where the acts are more clear.

Years ago I lead a small group of less than a half dozen vehicles along the T&T. I (we) were approached by a BLM LEO and read the riot act for being in a closed area. I had done my research and had contacted the wilderness expert in the BLM office. Finally I asked the LEO if she knew him. She replied that he was in the back seat of the SUV. I approached the SUV and the back window come down about a half of inch. I introduced myself and asked if I had miss-understood him in any way on the phone. He replied I had not. I asked what the LEOs problem was and he did not reply. I returned to the LEO and told her I couldn't stop her from giving us tickets and taking our vehicles but as confirmed by the expert this wasn't EVEN BLM land let alone wilderness and pointed to my gps. A short time later the greenie was with the BLM Manager was coming from a closed area looking for the only fencing crew IMHO to show it off to her. I have no longer any respect for the BLM.

If you think I'm negative so be it. This isn't about bad people being were they shouldn't be. That's the excuse and that's the history. I do expect the Dumont Duners to continue to get screwed. That's not an attack that's an opinion although somewhat different from yours. You attacked the wrong guy. Apology accepted. When I'm in a better place I might actually have a conversation with you but thus far I haven't. We are in fact from the same ocean but miles apart with our methods. I don't hit the BLM with a pipe neither do I trust them with good reason. The BLM is in fact the power but only in their own mind. They are supposed to be managing the lands for the people. Problem is that we the people are going to continue to get what we always have gotten as long as we continue to do what we have always done which unfortunately wasn't enough. As I said before the BLM has taken ignoring public comment meetings to an art form. It's about time for we the people to tell them NOT ANOTHER INCH and not "well if we let them fence the T&T that doesn't affect me and maybe they will stop there." They won't. I've been there and I've done that and it didn't work.

Eli



Eli, your are correct about the BLM being in charge of the lands. However they are like a string puppet being controlled by the greenies and the Washington bureacrats. Our(off-roaders) problem is that we are not united never have been but hope we will. Sure you can get some to come out to a meeting and a clean up but to try to get them together to understand what it's going to take to keep what we have left is like hearding drunk cats!
I understand your frustration with BLM and I get frustrated with them also, however I have found that working with them on a close basis through FoDD and the Dumont sub-group and understanding the HUGE amount of bullshit they have to go through to get anything done is amazing. Wether the project is positive or negative in our eyes they are told by Washington and what laws the idiots who occupy the seats back there want done it is an amazinglly exsaparating issue. I sometimes wonder if they have to requsition TP and how much paper gets wasted just to get that job done.
We as offf- roaders and as American Citizens have to stop reyling on the goverment to"Take care" of things because as we can all see by the way things are currently in this country now they would screw up an iron ball. Again we need to unite but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we need to look to other enities that are already working with our interests in mind. such as Blue ribbon Colition, The Utah based LANDFORALL campaign which has been pretty successful keeping the US Govt and greenies taking over huge amounts of land in Utah.
So in closing to all that I hope are reading this please if you can't '/won't get involved with your time and support local organizations at least send some money to the previouslly mentioned organizations. They will use it to better our interests and positions.
Are you going to the Tecopa meeting on Wed. Eli? If so I would like to meet you and get re-started on another foot if that's ok with you.
For the rest of you JUST SHOW UP WED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#29 kobe10

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:22 AM

ynot- Terry,

I live in Los Angeles and can not make the meeting on Wednesday. I can and will offer my support as a volunteer to patrol the wash trail/road to make people aware of the closed area, if thats something that would help our cause. Most of our camp would be willing to assist as well. Please let me know how i can help.

Thanks!

#30 ynot

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 03:40 PM

ynot- Terry,

I live in Los Angeles and can not make the meeting on Wednesday. I can and will offer my support as a volunteer to patrol the wash trail/road to make people aware of the closed area, if thats something that would help our cause. Most of our camp would be willing to assist as well. Please let me know how i can help.

Thanks!



Thank You Kobe for the offer. We will see what we will need after this meeting shakes out.
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#31 SAND~~SNAKE

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 03:45 PM

I am in :woopitydoo: who has room?

#32 sandawg

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 03:53 PM

I am in :woopitydoo: who has room?


I have room for 3, Mission Hills, by College and 95. If your close I can pick up people between 4:30-5 so we'll have time to get there before the meeting starts at 7. I figure about 1 hour 45 +- to get there! If any want to come to the house I've got lots of room to park. PM for address. :thumb:

Edited by sandawg, 11 September 2011 - 04:00 PM.

LIFE'S JOURNEY TO THE GRAVE SHOULDN'T BE WITH THE INTENTION OF ARRIVING
IN A WELL PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN BROADSIDE,
THOROUGHLY USED UP, TOTALLY WORN OUT, AND LOUDLY SHOUTING,



HOLY SH*T.....WHAT A RIDE !

#33 ynot

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 06:18 PM

I have room for 3, Mission Hills, by College and 95. If your close I can pick up people between 4:30-5 so we'll have time to get there before the meeting starts at 7. I figure about 1 hour 45 +- to get there! If any want to come to the house I've got lots of room to park. PM for address. :thumb:



Should only be about 1 hour 15-30 minute run depending a little on traffic but I am leaving about 5 5:15. I would like to ride down but if I need to I can take the truck.
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#34 sandawg

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 06:32 PM

Should only be about 1 hour 15-30 minute run depending a little on traffic but I am leaving about 5 5:15. I would like to ride down but if I need to I can take the truck.


Thought you and Ken were riding together. That's what I thought he said when I saw him earlier this week! You and Ken can ride with me. Sand Snake wants to ride over too and that will fill me up I was concerned about the east bound traffic at that time of the evening on the 215 and Blue Diamond Rd.

Edited by sandawg, 11 September 2011 - 06:38 PM.

LIFE'S JOURNEY TO THE GRAVE SHOULDN'T BE WITH THE INTENTION OF ARRIVING
IN A WELL PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER TO SKID IN BROADSIDE,
THOROUGHLY USED UP, TOTALLY WORN OUT, AND LOUDLY SHOUTING,



HOLY SH*T.....WHAT A RIDE !

#35 SAND~~SNAKE

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 07:10 PM

Thought you and Ken were riding together. That's what I thought he said when I saw him earlier this week! You and Ken can ride with me. Sand Snake wants to ride over too and that will fill me up I was concerned about the east bound traffic at that time of the evening on the 215 and Blue Diamond Rd.


Dont forget about BERT he posted something in the shout box. He will need plenty of room for his bean bag issue :laughing:




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