UmaGuy

good point.... but CBD knows exactly what they are doing.

for example Ibex Dunes is a wilderness area inside Death Valley National Park, so as far as I know BLM can not survey that area.

BLM can't... but other researchers/hobbyists can...

CBD claims that Ibex Dunes is being overrun by illegal ORVs, but I have my doubts.

Basically someone needs to survey all the areas around dumont dunes for lizards. I have a feeling that although they are rare where the heaviest ORV activity occurs, they might be dirt common and in no danger at all just a mile away. In some areas, like Kelso Dunes (which I have been to), they are really common; my friends have seen hundreds in a day. Elsewhere, like in Coachella Valley (which is a different species), they are on the verge of extinction. But I don't know what the case is around Dumont since I haven't been there... yet.

Just to make it clear, I might be a "greenie" but I'm not twisting the truth. For example, I mentioned earlier that the entire study defining the Amargosa river DPS is only based on one gene, a sample size of 1. You could use that as ammunition in your letters to U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Why do I say this? Because it's true. By the way if anyone does some real surveys around the area to prove that these lizards are common, especially in surrounding areas like Ibex Dunes that are off limits to ORVs, then that will instantly shut down the CBD's petition.

Well if it is true that there is plenty of undamaged habitat for this population, then they shouldn't be listed. Like I said earlier, I am a big fan of these lizards, but I'm not an eco terrorist out to shut down all the ORV areas without good reason. To do so would give a bad name to conservationists.

Well I'll visit Dumont Dunes this spring and see for myself how this lizard is faring both in the ORV area and in the surrounding off-limits areas. And I would be happy to talk to you guys in person so you can see what kind of "hippie" I am. I'll be the dude walking around with a fishing pole on the sand dunes. Or sandboarding. lol. Anyway, history has shown that there is no point in protecting a lizard, or any other species, without the local community's support.

Welcome to the board UmaGuy.

I would ask that you please be careful in how you phrase things. To state "The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes..." is not accurate. It has not yet been determined whether it deserves a finding as a distinct population segment and I sure don't like to see anyone jumping the gun and misleading the readers of this message board.

By the way, I too believe that it is possible for the lizard to coexist with ORVs at Dumont and Friends of Dumont Dunes is working hard to make sure there will never be a need for Fish & Wildlife to intervene on behalf of the lizard.

Also, your point about illegal off road use is a valid one. If we do not regulate ourselves, the authorities have no choice but to step in and do it for us and that's not good for us or them.

Vicki

Beau, no I have not been to Dumont, although I am planning a sandboarding trip there this spring. I have been to other dunes nearby.

Don, I would be happy to introduce myself to you at Dumont this spring. And I am not spouting "backstabbing eco terrorist propaganda". I am merely stating the facts to correct some misconceptions I saw posted on this open internet forum.

Vicki, thanks for the welcome. However, I stand by my wording. The endangered species act specifically states that all decisions on whether to list a species as endangered, or whether a population is distinct enough to be protected as a "distinct population segment", must be based on the "best available science." Currently, the best available science strongly suggests that the Amargosa River clade is distinct - seperated from other populations for roughly half a million years. Granted, that study is based on only one gene, but it is the best available science. No one even suspected that the Amargosa River population was distinct until 2006, when that research was published.

Andy

Dunefreak, the first two pics are of a desert iguana. The second two pics are of Mojave fringe-toed lizards.

The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes, Coyote Holes, and Ibex Dunes (Death Valley). It is genetically distinct from all other fringe-toed lizards, such as those commonly found at other sites in the southern Mojave. The species in question is a California/Arizona native, not from Africa; the common name "fringe-toed lizard" is also applied to many lizards worldwide which have independently evolved fringed toes to run on fine sand.

I believe it is possible for this isolated lizard population to coexist with ORVs at the Dumont Dunes, but it means that certain dune areas, particularly those that still have vegetation, probably need to be protected. Also, illegal ORV use at Ibex Dunes does not help lizards or riders; it gives authorities more reason to regulate.