eli

Sandawg

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was asking bigdan where the paddles are. Sandawg you are shown in Henderson. bigdan isn't shown.

Where are you located?

Commercials not weird enough for ya? How about spacesuits? Apparently NASA was testing a spacesuit deployment system.

Eli

Looks like they were shooting a Polaris Commercial at Dumont a couple days this week. Lot's of Polaris red but I didn't see anything new. At least part of it was shot around the NW corner of the dunes. Base Camp was around restroom 9. I doubt that's in very good shape this weekend. Most of the crew appeared not to use it. Three semi's full of RZRs and as many production trucks. The truck guys didn't seem too happy to be stuck in the middle of no where.

Eli

It isn't just a matter of spending money at a certain Ranch. Close to the intersection there has often been an occupied RV behind a Conservatory sign and back in the brush. I'd suggest you might want to smile for the camera if you choose to turn illegally onto that county road. I wouldn't put it past them.

Eli

I've made a wide open run along where they are now building fences or perhaps more than 1 What's gonna happen when somebody gets mixed up in one?

Eli

Please remember that this isn't the last public comment meeting. After the plan is formulated there must be another one. After it's approved there is an appeal process.

The meeting was a bit scary. The BLM representatives when they didn't know something turned to Brian Brown for help and the guy in charge of drawing up the plan didn't know where Sperry was for which the Sperry Wash is named. Maybe he will at the next one. I'm all for educating those new to the area. It bothers me when they turn first to a guy with a very greenie twist. When I found the Wilderness expert for the Barstow office he'd only been on the job a week.

The other representative told me after the meeting that I needed to understand that there was a "lunatic fringe" that didn't respect anything they did to protect the wilderness. I replied that if they wanted people to respect the wilderness they might consider getting the postings right and enjoyed the look on his face. I also said I didn't consider Brian Brown "lunatic fringe" (I may be getting there however.) He immediately replied that he didn't either. Went way over his head that I was talking about the environmental damage at China Ranch.

I ad libbed a comment about stream crossings in the Fish Lake National Forest in Utah which help protect the environment and while I understood that the BLM didn't have the money perhaps the conservatory if they were really concerned about the river did. This morning I wonder why the BLM doesn't. Dumont is tiny by comparison. The forest service has trail rangers, Leo's, rescue teams, trail markers,they have to reopen the hundreds of miles of trails every season due to fallen trees, improved steam crossings, gates, and fences to enforce the 50" rule and they do it all without a single user fee. I guess they aren't building fences to keep me out although Terry with his S might have an argument about that Still many trails open to those over 50"

I've grown extremely tired of hearing of environmental damage real or imagined caused by out-of-bounds dune riders. I woke this morning enjoying the fact the I was able to toss back some damage caused by the greenies. I watched Brown's face carefully as I said it and Brown really isn't feeling any love toward me to today. Good, he's forgotten that without the T&T railroad his family would have moved on to other areas and he wouldn't even be in the area today without the T&T. I don't appreciate his efforts to "protect" it by keeping me and other that appreciate it out and further to screw with dune riders.

In your comments you might consider adding you don't come to Dumont to look at fences. The only reason that the greenies don't object to fact that fences are certainly less that scenic is that the greenies don't really use the areas the fences are supposed to protect so they don't have to look at them. Scenic river perhaps once. With all the fences no more and there are fences coming and user fees are going to pay for them.

Eli

I have a rzrs also but when I take it to Dumont it's paddeled up so a ride along would be great. I agree we will need maps and see if we can go to work on them. I don't know but I can guess why public comments are not going to be taken i can see Brown and Sorrels hands all over that. I think we as duners need to attend just for a show of strength and to gleen as much info as possible on what the hell there up to now.

Certainly Brown and Sorrels will attempt to stack the meeting. Neither are stupid. Therefore my get there early and get in line post. IMHO they aren't behind the no comments decision but it serves them. Again the BLM has taken ignoring public comment to an art form. None the less I'm willing to pick up my lance once more. Perhaps between us we can figure out how to do things differently than I always have done things and obtain different results. If you are paddeled up Sperry Wash isn't a place to visit. For which I will have to pay dearly I may try to steal the wife's Jeep. Dinging a rocker panel in the wash will get me in deeper than...well you get the idea.

Worse case I'll just take the truck and forgo finding the fence. If Barstow built a fence in August they are under a lot pressure to get er done. IMHO this plan is going to go down fast at least by government standards.

Eli

Eli, I agree 100% with that post and in the previous post as I know both songs very well. I am sorry you may not make it as I am just not that familiar with the area they are discussing but I want to learn. If you don't make it I would like to sit down sometime shortly afterwards with you as you do know the area and I want mine and the others that are either attending or not to have that knowledge to work with in their e-mails.

I have an appointment to speak to the BLM Wildlife Biologist tomorrow morning to find out why and when the decision to take verbal comments was made.

As to the meeting itself, all I can say is I still believe attending will be good for all that are willing to follow up with a written comment. Otherwise it may be a waste of your time. I am going armed with a notebook and pen to take notes and my camera to take pictures of the maps that they most certainly have up to show the efffected area. I am still driving out and so far in my truck I have Ken and am picking up rap rider at rainbow & Blue Diamond. I can hold till 5:30 to leave if someone needs a little time after getting off work(JIM) But we will be flying low to get there on time. So let me know who needs a ride.

Terry

Terry

I think if we are going to do any good we should sit before the written comment period expires. I'm retired so it certainly should be possible to get together. We need to get our hands on the written purposed plan and all maps. If they want to play Freedom of Information Act games I'll play but I don't start with a pipe. The bell on oral comments has rung and they won't change it. The meeting is simply and by design too short to allow them. Don't waste much of your time with trying to change that. If I manage to pull it off I'll be leaving Wednesday morning and running the grade to the North Pole and possibly running up Sperry Wash route to Sperry. Likely won't know until tomorrow late afternoon or evening if it's going to happen. It may be a waste of time but it also maybe worth another attempt to keep from losing any more miles. If at all possible I'll be there. RZR's are SxS's they have at two seats. I try to avoid the holiday weekends but if I'm out there when you are your welcome to come along.

Eli

Tecopa Community Center may not hold too many. Get there early and get in line. Otherwise you may find yourselves standing outside a meeting filled with greenies. Been there done that too.

Eli

"written comments will be solicited, but oral comments will not be taken".

Unbelievable simply unF'n Unbelievable

Eli

Terry,

While I would like to get off on another foot and be there Wednesday. I have several issues to resolve before hand. It turns out the battery in my truck died in long term parking and it's no longer stocked although it's supposed to be here later this afternoon. My RZR needed work before I left. In the perfect world I would like to visit the new August fencing along the T&T BEFORE the meeting. In addition my trailers are stored across town. With my luck lately I'll get the truck fixed, get the trailer, risk taking the RZR down the grade and lose a wheel as it's a wheel bearing issue.

The thing to remember when dealing with the Barstow BLM is yes duners mean a lot of $$$ to them. Greenie challenges in court costs everybody lot's of $$$$. It also is highly likely that Brown and the conservatory have obtained land (old Tecopa comes to mind) that in time will be given to the BLM. There's some program with tax advantages to do so. So while duners mean some $$$ to the BLM they aren't gonna upset Brown. Old Tecopa can be accessed via the Sperry Wash route and Western Talc Road the later of which the BLM or Brown have nothing to do with...yet. So in order to "protect" Old Tecopa it's likely that the fight is going to be in Sperry Wash. I don't know where the north edge of 5 miles of the Wild River recreation is exactly but as it’s 5.6 miles via the filled bridge it wouldn't surprise me that Sperry (or the last river crossing getting to it) is outside of it. If you don’t know the filled bridge I speak of it’s at the end of the wash that one enters just past the entrance by going pretty much straight instead of climbing the hill to the more commonly used camping areas or if you prefer at the extreme east edge of Dumont recreation area.

You may not care, Brown doesn't and the Barstow BLM doesn't. There's old bridge crossing (which was never filled) on the T&T inside the Tecopa ACEC and an area known as the Palisades beyond that. It was an easy hike from the south boundary of the ACEC at least until non-native grown made crossing the river impossible on foot let alone with an out of bounds ATV. The Palisades is one of my most favorite places and was well enjoyed by others in the T&T group. Problem is the Barstow BLM built the post and wire at Sperry to “protect” the ACEC and turn the evil off-roaders east. It added about 6 miles round trip to that hike and my health simply wouldn’t and is unlikely to ever permit that addition. We lost that fight and as you said it isn’t going to ever change. Another bell rung. As painful as that was I accepted that fact and I and T&T group vowed “never another inch.” Needless to say we have lost miles since then and so have you. Perhaps you don’t realize it but it is a fact. Dumont Duners are slowly being fenced in. Once that is complete it’s much easier to close the remaining entrance. The law isn’t an immoveable object that will always protect you. Perhaps it should be but the reality is that it isn’t.

I know I’m gonna lose almost everybody on this forum and I don’t promote entering closed areas. My views on the Barstow BLM and the BLM in general were formed from experience. My views on land use were formed in the 70’s with Guthrie, Dylan and with The Five Man Electrical Band. If that makes me negative and again so be it.

From “This Land is Your Land” Written by Guthrie as performed by Dylan and not surprisingly left out of much of the time since.

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there

And that sign said - no tress passin'

But on the other side... it didn't say nothin!

Now that side was made for you and me!

From “Signs” The Five Man Electrical Band.

What gives you the right?

To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in.

If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign

Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind

Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

Sorry about the Great American Novel of a posting but I may not resolve be able to resolve the issues above and make it to the meeting.

Eli

Eli, your are correct about the BLM being in charge of the lands. However they are like a string puppet being controlled by the greenies and the Washington bureacrats. Our(off-roaders) problem is that we are not united never have been but hope we will. Sure you can get some to come out to a meeting and a clean up but to try to get them together to understand what it's going to take to keep what we have left is like hearding drunk cats!

I understand your frustration with BLM and I get frustrated with them also, however I have found that working with them on a close basis through FoDD and the Dumont sub-group and understanding the HUGE amount of bullshit they have to go through to get anything done is amazing. Wether the project is positive or negative in our eyes they are told by Washington and what laws the idiots who occupy the seats back there want done it is an amazinglly exsaparating issue. I sometimes wonder if they have to requsition TP and how much paper gets wasted just to get that job done.

We as offf- roaders and as American Citizens have to stop reyling on the goverment to"Take care" of things because as we can all see by the way things are currently in this country now they would screw up an iron ball. Again we need to unite but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we need to look to other enities that are already working with our interests in mind. such as Blue ribbon Colition, The Utah based LANDFORALL campaign which has been pretty successful keeping the US Govt and greenies taking over huge amounts of land in Utah.

So in closing to all that I hope are reading this please if you can't '/won't get involved with your time and support local organizations at least send some money to the previouslly mentioned organizations. They will use it to better our interests and positions.

Are you going to the Tecopa meeting on Wed. Eli? If so I would like to meet you and get re-started on another foot if that's ok with you.

For the rest of you JUST SHOW UP WED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry

My attacking the duners at the meeting (of which I have an interest admittedly not as great as yours) would serve about as much purpose as your attack on the wrong person.

I did reach out to many groups, attempted to work with the BLM and attempted to find some common ground with the greenies. I understand that Sperry Wash is a Federally approved route and I've watched that route get narrower and narrower over the years. I'm not happy about that but that's a bell rung. I'm not interested in it getting any narrower nor further wilderness postings south of there and west of the grade where the acts are more clear.

Years ago I lead a small group of less than a half dozen vehicles along the T&T. I (we) were approached by a BLM LEO and read the riot act for being in a closed area. I had done my research and had contacted the wilderness expert in the BLM office. Finally I asked the LEO if she knew him. She replied that he was in the back seat of the SUV. I approached the SUV and the back window come down about a half of inch. I introduced myself and asked if I had miss-understood him in any way on the phone. He replied I had not. I asked what the LEOs problem was and he did not reply. I returned to the LEO and told her I couldn't stop her from giving us tickets and taking our vehicles but as confirmed by the expert this wasn't EVEN BLM land let alone wilderness and pointed to my gps. A short time later the greenie was with the BLM Manager was coming from a closed area looking for the only fencing crew IMHO to show it off to her. I have no longer any respect for the BLM.

If you think I'm negative so be it. This isn't about bad people being were they shouldn't be. That's the excuse and that's the history. I do expect the Dumont Duners to continue to get screwed. That's not an attack that's an opinion although somewhat different from yours. You attacked the wrong guy. Apology accepted. When I'm in a better place I might actually have a conversation with you but thus far I haven't. We are in fact from the same ocean but miles apart with our methods. I don't hit the BLM with a pipe neither do I trust them with good reason. The BLM is in fact the power but only in their own mind. They are supposed to be managing the lands for the people. Problem is that we the people are going to continue to get what we always have gotten as long as we continue to do what we have always done which unfortunately wasn't enough. As I said before the BLM has taken ignoring public comment meetings to an art form. It's about time for we the people to tell them NOT ANOTHER INCH and not "well if we let them fence the T&T that doesn't affect me and maybe they will stop there." They won't. I've been there and I've done that and it didn't work.

Eli

I saw this post this morning and wrote a reply which fortuately was deleted when I hit a wrong key. However after a couple cups of coffee and some thinking on the subject I remembered that this is not the first Negative nancy post you have had. Seems to me a few years ago we had a heated discussion on this board that we eventually took to PM status and then to phone conversation(s) I know you talked about how you had been involved in dealings with the goverment and could tell that you were very negative and wanted another fight with them. Maybe you lost the previous ones I don't know. You told me you had staff and were a successful financial consultant and had staff and would use them to carry on the battle. In real life what you were looking for was the inclusion of a couple of your ASA buddies onto the board of directors for the Friends of Dumont elections when we were just getting it started after Ed Waldhiem had asked a few people to take it over as he did not have the time to run it anymore. If I remember right you and your ASA buddies had a hard on for Vicki Warren who was voted in as President and that the fact none of your cohorts made the board you became dis-interested and told me you would not support FoDD as long as "she" had anything to do with it.

Well we continued on without all your promised support and although Vicki is now a non voting advisor to the board of directors this is the first I have seen of you.

You always stand on old lost causes that we can do nothing about. All the surronding land to Dumont that is closed and has been closed for many years is on the Federal register and cannot be undone. That would be like trying to re-open Kelso Dunes, it's never going to happen.

Now on to Sperry wash I know for a fact as I watched the actions of Gerry Hubbard, Ed Waldheim and Randy Banis work dilgently to get the access to Dumont permently worded into the Wild River Wilderness bill. It is and always will be open as Sperry Wash is on the Recreational list of the bill and cannot be changed to either Wild or Wilderness. That area and the wording to get it in was pushed through with these gentlemens insistince to Congressman Howard P. "Buck" Mckeon who was a co-sponser to this bill. The only voice of reason of the authors who included Barbara Boxer and other enviromenlist Senators and congressmen. Without the many long airplane flights to Washington DC to personally meet with Congressman Mckeon we would have had a chance of losing the 5 miles of "Recreational designation" to the Armagossa river which includes and precludes any change in that designation.

I am not saying that there could be a fight about it down the line but we stand a greater chance since the law was passed with that designation then if we had to fight to keep the access road open if it wasn't included.

As to your claim of a video about a trailhead and pit toilets etc. It is well known and documented that the federal goverment does not have nor will likely have any such funds for this for a very long time and from a personal standpoint I have no issue with what they want to do. Why should trail riders have to use bushes etc. for their personal needs. One of the reasons this meeting coming up is to figure out how to stop the random egress and ingress into Sperry Wash from either the dune side or the north side near Tecopa. If Off roaders would stay on the designated trail we wouldn't even be having this conversation, again we are our own worst enemies.

If you ran into the manager of Barstow BLM in Sperry wash and that person was a male, well then he wasn't the Barstow Area manager who is female and has had the position for at least 8 years that I know of. So I don't have any idea who you talked to but again if you were the Barstow area manager and had a crew out working, I am pretty sure wether male or female would have known the exact spot the crew was working that particular day as the Field Office has millions of acres to cover and I doubt the Manager is in the field on a dailey basis.

The 50' section to the the west of the T&T rail bed has been closed for so many years I really can't remember when it happened. The problem is that people do not read nor obey these posted signs and encroach into closed areas thus causing disputes with the CBD and other "green" organizations. Again we are our worst enemy.

As to the 50 duners not being welcomed as usual your uninformed as when we have had Sat meetings at the Barstow BLM office all the citizens were more than welcome they were appreciated. If 50 greenies showed up at a different meeting I would expect a federal office to treat them with the same respect and courtesy they have showed us. Don't believe me? Ask the 40 or so who came to the Sat meeting about 18 months ago.

BTW I would like to see the video, not that it matters but I would like to see you live up to something you have said and written in here as you bash those who work their tails off to make sure that what can be done is getting done.

As to my personal opinion of your post, when someone who stands on the outside and casts stones at the few who fight for the cause and just so you know MY CAUSE IS DUMONT DUNES OHV AREA. plain and simple. I want to make sure these dunes are available for us now and for generations to come whether it be in gas machines or electric dune buggies i don't care. It is a piece of heaven on earth for me and many who use it and treat it right. For us that use our time,our own money and effort to put on clean-ups and other events your slander is reprehensible.

Lastly in closing I always find it comical that such people such as you and your negative ilk can stand behind a keyboard and throw stones but can't pick up a extra bag of trash or help another duner out. So I would appreciate it if you wouldn't plant your head on Comp Hill as it would deface the area and that my friend is what we are trying to prevent.

I apoligize for the extremely long post but the readers need to know from where you come from and that you are a negative Nancy not a do'er. To bad you picked the wrong team but that happens. Anytime your willing to pick your self up out of the dirt we would welcome your help in any fight we may be involved in. As you may not be aware of it's typical that 95% of the work is done by less than 80% of the group, in this case it's probably less than 5% doing the work.

With all due respect,

Terry

Terry

With more than due respect, your memory is as bad as your math. I don't know what the heck you are talking about. You and I have never spoken by PM by phone or in person. The T&T group has never had the funding staff or pull to stop the BLM from doing what they darn well pleased. Nor have I ever been a successful financial consultant or an unsuccessful one for that matter. If the present manager is a female and has been there 8 years then the manager I speak of was clearly before her. Again Barstow BLM presented the Sperry Wash trailhead plan in 2000. (Now that I have returned home from the death in my family my notes clearly show it was posted west of the grade in first in 2000, 20001 and 2002. You do keep notes of your conversations with those that have never done you wrong don't you?) It’s still posted there to the best of my knowledge which was last season. Again please ask those who have never done you wrong by what Act of Congress was that done? Apparently the female manager wasn't there yet. I'll expect you to eat your own words publicly on this forum.

I could give a crap if there was ever funding for the trail head at Sperry. I give a crap that Bartstow BLM has felt and continues to feel (apparently including those have never done you wrong) free to post as wilderness west of the grade. Frankly it scares the heck out of me that you don’t know anything about where the wilderness is or by what Act of Congress it got there. If you expect people to stay out of wilderness GET IT POSTED RIGHT. Keep the fences from destroying what I enjoy most and that's the grade. Sperry Wash looks like a LA parking lot with all the posts and cable. BTW I also dune but am most active with the T&T group that I started apparently long before your time.

I'm sorry you feel that the only do'ers are those in YOUR group. You are very sadly mistaken but that's the one reason the greenies are so successful. It sickens me to see the trash that's left at Comp Hill and I have picked up a bit and towed a duner or two back to camp including a young child in Sperry Wash with a broken down quad that never should have been there alone and without water in the first place. Exactly how much trash have you picked up on the T&T grade? You won't see many railfans east or for that matter west of the grade as they are there to follow the Tonopah & Tidewater. If you choose to pick nicks it's duners that's are outside of the approved areas not railfans. Perhaps that’s a position you would prefer I take on Wednesday.

Previous loses....yes there have been a few:

The Tecopa ACEC

The post and wire 3 miles before you even get to that ACEC

Valjean Wilderness cutting the grade to Riggs

Wilderness posting on the grade south of the North Pole

The wilderness posting west of the Dumont Wye.

Yet even more post and in Sperry Wash

Wilderness posting west of the grade at Sperry

Wilderness postings west of cuts and north of the filled bridge.

But never mind Terry it will never happen to you and next time you attack someone please get your facts right. I stand corrected, your head is clearly not in the sand at the top of comp hill.

Eli

Ok just to clear a few things up. The crossing to Dumont Dunes is included in the already passed Wild River bill as a recreation acess and can never be closed.

I have had long talks with certain policy makers in the Barstow BLM office who have told me and they have never done me wrong yet that they have no intention of closing off access to Sperry wash trail/road. that this meeting is about how to protect the areas surronding it. Again I fear we will go back to the post & cable and I am always worried that the ecoterrorists will see post and cabling areas around Dumont as a victory. They will then move on to trying to get Dumont surronded by cable so all it will take is a 9th circut liberal court to pull the last cable and we are done.

To the first point above yea right....one judge and your crossing is closed. Care to count the roads closed by the BLM to private in-holdings and mining claims in the area? Have you been to Valjean lately? Again Sperry Wash was/is a road. There is still pavement for anyone to see that elects to travel the route or read a little of the history of the area on how they got the ore from the mines at Tecopa to UP after the T&T stopped operations.

To the second you can either take my word for their plans for a parking area, vault toilets, trail-head and historical signage at Sperry or I will attempt to locate the video tape of Barstow BLM telling T&T group about them. What they did was post wilderness signs again west of the grade. Why don't you take a little tour along the T&T count the number of wilderness signs west of it including at Sperry, and read the Desert Protection Act of 1994. Then go ask "certain policy makers" WTF. I did and got nothing but BS for answers. It wasn't your area of interest they built yet anouther of their post and cabling areas so I suppose you and most duners could give a rat's a$$.

You would think that after the Act was passed in 1994 by 2000 when that video tape was made they would know where the closed areas were and were the posts and cables were being built. You would be wrong. A couple of years later on Public Lands Day I meet the manager of the Barstow office in Sperry Wash. After chatting for a bit he asked if I had come across a fencing crew. I replied that I had and gave him directions because he didn't know where they were. BTW the Brown family of which the owners of China Ranch and Shoshone are members may be raising tree huggers but they certainly weren't the first in the area. At least one of the leaders partly responsible for the Wild River, protect the critters, march the Tecopa ACEC south three miles and the Tecopa ACEC itself which came about in about 1974 was sitting in the passenger seat beside him. 50 angry tree huggers in the Barstow BLM office is something they prefer didn't happen. 50 angry duners would be considered an illegal gathering.

So if you if you are one of the duners that think that crossing can never be closed I suggest reading the Desert Protection Act of 1994 and taking note of what we all have lost around Dumont since then or if you could give a rat's a$$ and can't or won't read perhaps you should go to the top of Comp Hill dig a deep hole place your head in it and drop your pants. You shouldn't have to wait much longer for those that have never done you wrong if they have not been already been transferred and replaced by those that will.

Eli

Posted Yesterday, 01:42 PM

These people even the one who is the president of the Armagosa River Conservancy and owns the China Date ranch wants us out of the area. Even though he takes your money and sells you his goods knowing that you have travelled illegally on paved roads and his county maintained dirt road to get there he wants OHV's out of the Sperry Wash! If they get what they want it will leave no OHV trails for folks who come out with dirt tires and want to ride their quads, SXS or jeeps/trucks whatever. I can tell you right now that those people who want to go for a trail ride will intrude on the already closed areas surronding the dunes and it will bring HEAT down on us to either shut us down or FENCE the whole area. Of course once the fence is in place a judge orders an injunction and the last opening is closed and we allowed it to happen! We need to show up as a interested group of Stakeholders and wear a dumont shirt so they know who we are and be respectfull but get our point across. The meeting is Wed. Night @7 PM and is about an 1 hour 15 minute trip from vegas, Who is willing to take an evening to protect our rights? Let me know as I have some seats available and would really like to see some support for our side for a change at one of these meetings.

Terry

President Friends of Dumont Dunes

Nevada OHV representitive to the BLM Dumont Dunes DAC Sub-Group

Unfortunately I have more pressing matters due to a death in the family and may not have time to formulate a comment nor rally the T&T troops. None the less I hope to attend.

This is and has never been about Sperry Wash. As the BLM closed the T&T grade to the south, posted wilderness signs to the west of the grade in the Dumont area when the wilderness is clearly defined as 50' east of the center-line of the grade, moved the Tecopa ACEC south 3 miles south to Sperry, scrapped it's plans to build a trail-head there and posted it as wilderness again west of the grade and built a fence along the grade which I highly doubt is in keeping with the 50' rule most people didn't give a rats a$$ because they thought it didn't affect them or thought if they worked with the BLM they wouldn't screw with them. I and the T&T group attempted to work with Barstow BLM and they still screwed us at Sperry and IMHO duners are next.

Surprise surprise they now want to close Sperry Wash not the least of which is because the Amaragosa Conservancy has gotten their hooks into old Tecopa which can accessed via Sperry Wash and Western Talc Rd. BTW did anybody mention that Sperry Wash was not actually a route but a road?

If you had been to China Ranch and actually read the sign at the trail-head to the T&T grade or visited Shoshone and stopped at new conservancy visitor center, or visited old Tecopa (not the more modern one if you can call it that) and wondered about the guard there you would have known the Amaragosa River Conservancy is well organized, well funded, and rising rapidly with the support of other tree hugger groups. If the wild and scenic river designation is used as an excuse to close the Sperry Wash crossings, how can you not suspect the Dumont Dune crossing is not really their target?

I doesn't surprise me that Brian Brown has become president of the Conservancy. As I pointed out in a former Tecopa thread his family owns more than a black water tank full from Amaragosa through Shoshone,Tecopa, to Baker and at least one business in Pahrump. Rumor had it that some a..hole dumped their tanks and trash in Tecopa. BTW not that a boycott wouldn't help but Brown and his family doesn't give a rat's a$$ about the goods they sell to duners I serious doubt that it amounts to much in their minds they however will remember forever the dumping. The Browns are well connected and respected by the authorities. He who has the gold makes the rules. IMHO staying out of closed areas is a given but a duner outside of closed areas had better be worried about passing gas.

The BLM is required to take public comment. Ignoring that comment and doing what they planned to do before they ever were required to take that comment has taken to an art form by the BLM. Their pockets are already hurting and I suspect attendance down will be down this year. I suggest attending the meeting and speaking out is important but if you want to make an impact with BLM Barstow you should consider forgoing this years season pass and organize as many group rides as possible to other non-fee or area's outside Barstow BLM coverage.

Eli

It's still there; the bottom half was solid concrete. It's been there since near the turn of the century.

Thanks,

Ruark

The last Riggs section house was made of adobe with a concrete floor. Unlike Sperry which was entirely adobe the end (shorter) walls at Riggs were made of concrete. These section houses replaced earlier ones made of wood. The cisterns at Sperry and Riggs were made of concrete unlike the one at Valjean which was made of metal. All of three of these stops were dry and water needed to be hauled in by tank car. A section house houses a section gang of maybe a half dozen workers. Normally the foreman was provided a different building in which he and his family lived. The section gang sent out track walkers (later in some cases they may have used gasoline speeders there is a set out for one at Sperry) in both directions daily to inspect the track. They also made minor repairs and maintained the track and roadbed.

Officials of Pacific Coast Borax worked to build Death Valley into a tourist resort during the later years of the railroad in an attempt to carry more passengers. The Death Valley Hotel (not to be confused with the Inn) at Furnace Creek was built of of adobe following a tour of Riggs and Sperry by officials to study cheap construction methods.

Because wood is rare it's reused over and over in the desert. I was surprised to learn the ties from the Death Valley Railroad when it was pulled up were sent to New Mexico along with the rails and other equipment. When the T&T was pulled up some of the bridge timbers were sold to the US army. Often entire buildings were moved from one bust town to the next. Adobe if not maintained turns into what appears to be a light colored pile of mud on top of a concrete floor as is the case at Sperry. Although the end walls have fallen at Riggs it makes the location easier to find. It is legally accessible (or was the last time I was there) via what's known as Riggs Road on some maps which intersects 127 and heads east to Riggs. Many stops on the T&T Borax Smith named for family or officials of the company. Riggs however was named for a miner operating in the area.

Eli

Is this in the area of death valley and if so approx. where? I have a contact who knows Death Valley and surrounding areas very well and I may be able to get you in contact with him to answer your questions.

Terry

Terry if you could follow the T&T roadbed just east of the North Pole south. You would first come to Valjean then Riggs. It's just north of Silver Lake. Unfortunately they cut the roadbed with even more wildness....yet again so you can't get there from Dumont anymore at least legally.

Eli

Hey there you guys! It's been a long time since I was here. If you do a search for "Ruark" you'll find the single thread a year or so back about finding Owl Hole Springs and Riggs Section house. It tells the story of my Uncle Bonnie McCullough, who was stranded with his wife and two babies when their Model T slipped off the timbers and stuck in the sand. He staggered through the desert and into Riggs Section House, where he passed out. Death Valley Jack Nickerson was there and was able to bring him around and rescue his family. This was in 1923. We tried to get somebody to take us out there, but my mother just couldn't take it. She was almost 90 years old. We put some stones on Jack's grave at Silver Lake Cemetery, but that was it, it was just too hot for her. Mother died last summer in an auto accident.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I will be back in Vegas July 11th through the 15th. I'm going to revisit the cemetery, and I'm wondering if Riggs Road is passable with a 2WD vehicle - I'll be renting something like a Corolla - up to the Riggs Section House where Riggs Road intersects with CR 20554. If not, is it possible I could find somebody to run me up there? I would pay them for gas and lunch. Just checking in, talk to you guys later.

-Ruark

Absolutely the worse time of year to go but I suppose that can't be helped. Been a while since I've been to Riggs as I recall it's high clearance, four wheel drive isn't required but not Corolla suitable either. PM me when you get closer and if I'm home I may be able to do something. Regardless I'll check my research and see if something has come up since this subject last can up. As I recall I came up blank with regard to your Uncle's trip and rescue with everybody I know.

Eli

Worth a call/trip to Mesquite when you get back to Vegas. They seemed to have a decent stock although the last time I stopped the XP wasn't out yet, good prices a friend bought a RZR4 there, and their service department may actually have a clue for warranty work. There were several XPs to look at Rip Off Now on Craig on Wednesday if you are trying to decide what accessories or color you want.

Eli.

Can anyone in the razor family do me a huge favor? I need to get stock dimensions: width @ the tires( or widest point, the length from the front leading edge to the center of the rear tires, and the overall length.

I'm looking at one, but I'd have to travel for it quite a distance. I'm trying to calculate what size of vehicle I need to get it home. Any chance it would fit in a dually long bed pickup?

Depends on the model of RZR and the accessories. Basic model is 50" x about 100" without accessories so it should fit. S Models and non-stock tires or spacers are wider. Bumpers and guards make it longer but as long the rear tires are in the bed and not on the gate you should be OK which you should be with a long bed.

Eli

The Feds, California and Nevada can't afford to build it. So people have pipe dreams of the private sector. If the UP could make money hauling passengers they'd upgrade the track to high speed rail. They all ready own the land. They couldn't make money so they gladly turned passengers over to Amtrash who with the aid of your tax dollars couldn't do it either and dropped Las Vegas.

Reminds me of the Vegas Monorail to nowhere even more so now that Sahara is closing. Just another private company that doesn't have to tell the public crap and who is looking for Federal loans (your tax dollars) to get the darn thing built. One thing is sure the darn thing won't have to make a dime or carry anywhere enough passengers for it's officers to collect THEIR big $$$. And you think those loans would be repaid?

Eli

My rig isn't all that big and I do have a 3/4 ton truck but a few times I worried about the Vegas side of the Potisi Hill coning towrds Vegas. I have a toy hauler that is 26 ft. What I do is top it out at 50 at the fire station and don't let it go more than 55 coming down. I do leave it in tow mode and it seems to do just fine. I can tell if I'm going to fast when Ihit the brakes since my truck tends to take out rotors really fast and tend to shudder if it's too much of a load to stop with the electric brakes.

Let the cars wait, it's not wotrth wrecking to let them go 70 down the hill!!!

Half ton's have pretty big tow ratings these days. Stay below them! While we all would like a bigger truck it just means you are gonna be slower up the hill and better be slower down it. Old rule of thumb was to go down the hill no faster than what you went up it. What's safe for a dodge with an exhaust brake with 14k plus behind it may not be safe for a half ton with 8K behind it. Being safe has nothing to do what size truck you have. It's about staying within the limits and knowing how to drive what you've got.

I've been heavier than most down the worst this country has to offer. I'd done it without a Jake brake and I've done it with them. The bigger the truck the better I like them but somehow I can't get used to the idea of paying more for a new one ton pickup than I paid for my last new semi tractor.

Eli

I must say I hate coming home down the grade over the hump, especially with the WW 5th, I feel it just does not have enough brakes on the trailer.

Turn on the flashers, drop some gears and take it slower. Make sure you leave enough brakes to completely STOP! If you are hating it somebody else may hate more if you don't have enough brakes. Nothing does at the speed many go down hills. Exhaust brakes are helpful but you still need enough brakes to stop in the unlikely event they fail. Plan for the worst including black ice this time of year.

The hump isn't Wolf Creek in CO but the last left has plenty of skid marks left by people in too big of a hurry. Nothing built (and properly serviced) you can't get safely down any hill in the country but it isn't ever a race to the bottom.

Eli