SailAway

I have no problem with them putting up the fence to protect that area. But I do have a problem with them putting up any other fence surronding the whole dune area. And that is what there ultimate plan is. it will take years to get the funding for it but what happens when the fence is all up and some little envrio group decides to file law suits and some green judge decides to close the area "temporarly". All they have to do is fence the road and we are done. I am against the use of tax dollars or fee money to enclose the Dumont Dune area.

This is all sounding very familiar... Sand Mountain maybe?

Let's make sure this is discussed at the next TRT meeting. Between now and then we need as many facts posted as possible so that members of the Dumont dune community can speak with knowledge and authority.

VickiW

I asked some more questions about this fence and any ongoing costs and here's what I was told.

The maintenance costs are expected to be minimal and will be offset by the subsequent reduced need to police the area and for BLM to maintain the area's status. Currently there is an expense associated with removing the tracks left by riders wandering beyond the open boundaries, trash removal, etc. There are also countless hours being spent by BLM representatives in attending meetings and holding discussions on how to alleviate the problem... reducing that workload will reduce the overall costs associated with the boundaries.

Finally, any maintenance costs that may be incurred can come from a variety of sources. There are wilderness funds (non entry-fee related) that can be tapped, operational funds (non entry-fee related) or even recreation funds (also non entry-fee related). However, if the duning public creates the need for maintenance (i.e., pulling the fence down for passage), of course the costs to repair the fencing will most likely come from money generated by the duning public.

VickiW

Jerry Seaver made the post on the ASA site. I just linked it. Jerry has incredible integrity and is a vast wealth of information.

Of course, and especially since the words that Jerry posted came directly from Lynnette with the Barstow BLM via an email exchange.

I believe Lynnette is one of the people who will be available at the SSSS next week. I have always found her to be helpful, informative and responsive.

VickiW

One way or another, fee collecting has been one big pain in the butt since it began.

But this year the reason for the confusion is to the benefit of the duning community.

Barstow BLM could have done what other sand areas have done and retained the same fee collectors for another season even though there was question as to whether all of the money was going to the right place. That was the easiest thing for those other sand areas to go along with... and it would have been easier for Barstow too. But that would not have been good for Dumont.

Instead, Barstow BLM erred on the side of caution and removed a source of trouble even though it has caused them more work and expenses in doing so.

In the process that means that Dumont fees are not set in stone just yet and availability of the passes is fluctuating daily.

I'd rather have the confusion than allow money to be 'misplaced' another year.

Now... Barstow BLM will be right next to Friends of Dumont Dunes at the Sand Sports Super Show so if anyone has any questions, please come by and fire away.

VickiW

Why can't they just leave things alone?

Which "they" do you mean? If it's the BLM, "they" have left things alone and now they can't do that any longer or else "we" will lose riding areas.

If the "they" you are referring to is the people who are riding in the closed areas, that's what we're working on here... finding a way to keep people from going into the closed areas so that our open riding areas do not become targets for closure.

VickiW

Not only are the user groups focused on reopening closed areas, but in this case we all have the chance to do precisely what people are asking the user groups to do.

Here is an opportunity to take proactive measures to prevent further closures and all options are being considered. For the first time in I don't know how long, there is no lawsuit, no court order, no BLM threat of closure, no petition with the FWS. This is a chance to make an offensive move.

A problem has been identified and it's now up to us to decide if we're going to deal with it or wait until it deals with us.

VickiW

Anyone who knows me knows how much I hate fencing of any kind. I don't want it in my desert or in my riding areas.

And I don't want this fencing either.

But I don't want additional closures even worse than I hate fencing.

This fencing is around a previously unused area, an area that is getting more use only because the range of users is spreading.

I absolutely believe that if people know they shouldn't be there, the majority will stay out and I can personally vouch for the lack of clear signage in the area.

Maybe we need to be looking at a two-fold solution. The grant process is all up in the air right now anyway and even if they do get it, it's not like it's immediately accessible. Maybe we need to push the BLM for more signs short of actual fencing and a beefed up education plan, with the fencing as a Plan B.

I will say that's only if we have the luxury of that kind of leeway. If the problem has already become such an issue that a lawsuit is imminent, we may be forced to give in to the fencing.

VickiW

I seem to be having trouble getting something across here...

These are not new closures. These are very old boundaries that have caused us relatively few problems until recently.

This is not some conspiracy by the anti-access groups. The truth of this matter is, had the bad guys wanted to use these incursions against us they would have done so already.

They have not.

Instead, the groups that are most interested in us respecting those boundaries have asked the recreation community for help in solving the problem.

This is a very rare opportunity to actually fix something before it is too far gone for anyone's use.

VickiW

Those closures, long-existent, are not in place to protect 'weeds' but really the fact is, it really doesn't matter at this point why they are there. Could they be removed? If someone has the time and money to fight Congress, I suppose it could be tried. I have neither the time or money to put into something that until very recently, has not had a detrimental effect on Dumont Dune recreation. Now that it is, solutions must be found.

Dumont used to be an area focused only on sand. With the influx of vehicles that can handle varied environments Dumont goers are venturing beyond the sand and more into the dirt, completely unaware that where they are venturing has been closed to off-road use for a long time.

Lack of education, lack of markers, whatever the reason, the problem now bleeds into the entire area and our choices are dwindling.

Although those closures may have no obvious value to the casual rider, protecting our existing riding areas from additional closures most certainly does have tremendous value to all riders.

We can take proactive measures now to protect what we have or take the chance that this small problem grows large enough to close it all. If those incursions continue, those closed areas will grow and our riding areas will shrink.

I've asked this before... NO FENCES is a fine stance, but please provide alternatives to something equally effective.

VickiW

Is it possible to post an electronic copy here for those of us who won't be making it to the SSSS? That and we could always print our own in an effort to educate those that we ride with.

You bet, after it's been completely reviewed and approved by the BOD of FoDD, which will not be until just before we're ready to send it to print.

While we're on the subject, we're also putting together a FAQ page for Dumont and Friends of Dumont Dunes... I should probably start a new thread for this but we are looking for suggestions for that too.

VickiW

Excellent idea, and that info is already included in the packet FoDD will be handing out at the SSSS this year.

Let's look at that idea instead of fencing.

Printing of materials... the cost could be covered with an OHMVR grant, at least the printing of the materials.

But what about handing them out? The Glamis ranger station used to have maps available showing the lawsuit closures but they never handed them out to cars coming and going at any of the primary entry points.

What would be the ongoing cost to have someone available to hand out the information? Certainly $500,000 would more than cover a full time salaried person dedicated to the task.

So then we are only left with having to consider the effectiveness of the action.

It would be interesting to see how effective education versus physical barrier has been in other instances.

VickiW

AND THEY WANT TO PUT UP A FENCE SO WE DONT RIDE ON DIRT THAT NOBODY HAS RIDDEN ON IN 50+ YEARS ..

Well, unfortunately the problem is that people have been riding in it and it's putting the rest of the open area at risk. We can either pretend it's not a problem and leave all the decisions to the BLM, or put the community to action and come up with our own ideas.

I'm not saying a fence is the best way to go... but it is one possible solution to a real problem.

YEA MAKE'S A WHOLE LOTTA SENSE TO ME........

P.S A FENCE AINT GOING TO DO sh*t, THEY WIL GO AROUND IT IF THEY WANT TO BREAK THE LAW, LIKE SAID BEFORE WE NEED TO EDUCATE SO THEY KNOW WHY NOT TO RIDE THERE, I HAVE GONE AND CLIMBED MANY FENCE'S TO GET TO SOMEWHERE I NEEEDED TO GO FENCE OR NO FENCE..

I'm guessing that you knew before you hopped that fence that you shouldn't be hopping that fence so even with that education you made the decision to ignore the reasoning and the fencing and violated the space anyway. I expect we'll have the same situation at Dumont no matter which way it ends up, fence or no fence.

But let's say NO FENCE for right now.

What are the other solutions? How else can we guaranty that those boundaries will be respected?

VickiW

I'll say this over and over... EDUCATION is the key!

If those that recreate at the dunes KNOW how important it is to keep out of those areas, I believe the majority of OHV incursions would stop.

There is but ONE road that leads into Dumont and groups like FoDD should be focusing their efforts on educating the users in my opinion.

Education is and always will be the key.

If it was the only cure, there would be no trash at Glamis.

Look at it another way... if all it took was education, there would be no seat-belt related deaths anymore. Is there one person with a driver's license who doesn't know it's against the law to drink and drive?

My point is education is essential to our sport but when it is not enough, what then?

We can't bury our heads and pretend this isn't a problem.

Sound bites won't fix it.

VickiW

Lawsuits have been threatened over the OHV incursions for a long time but we've managed to avoid them so far. One reason we've managed to avoid them is a willingness to seek proactive solutions to a serious problem.

At last year's cleanup there was a lot of discussion about these long-closed areas and how to properly police them.

Is the answer more law enforcement officers? If so, it would take another fee increase so would we prefer to raise our fees to pay them to babysit the boundaries or would we rather use the money elsewhere... or if we decide it's okay to raise fees for more officers, would the Dumont community prefer that they focus on camp racers and DUIs or closure boundaries?

Or should we wait and use the money for fighting the inevitable lawsuit that will be filed with continued incursions, not to mention the potential for additional closures disguised as buffer zones.

There has to be a solution here and it would be GREAT to get some community input on this.

Fences?

Police?

Volunteer patrols?

There is no denying that these boundaries must be respected and there is solid proof that they are not being respected.

So now what?

VickiW

I don't see it as a matter of what is biodegradable or not. I don't even see it as a matter of what is environmentally harmful. The way it was explained to me years ago at some forgotten DAC meeting was, it's simply a matter of not leaving behind anything that isn't a natural part of the beauty of the dunes.

Is the 'gray water' in your dish water any less intrusive than the gray water from your tank? Technically, no. But because it is such small amounts, my guess is the rangers will most likely look the other way if they see someone emptying out their dish tub.

Vicki

I did that for a DAC meeting in El Centro once... used it as an excuse to squeeze in another dune trip.

Vicki

I think it bears watching very closely.

I don't believe that Planet Sand for one second sanctions the actions of the small percentage of people who trashed Glamis last weekend, but I also feel that while they are in the best position to help the situation, they seem powerless to do so.

This is the third trashing of Glamis (that we know of) that is centered around a "gathering" of people who just happen to frequent the Planet Sand website.

I don't particularly care who the litterbugs are associated with... all I care about is not allowing a fourth annual Glamis trashing to take place.

And I absolutely don't want to see Dumont treated with the same disrespect.

We've now had early warning that there is a potential for this kind of behavior. At the very least we need to be on our toes and perhaps get the BLM involved to help derail the disaster before it sets in.

Vicki

Isn't the road suppose to have more material added,graded,sprayed with sealer and rolled again?

Yep. We'll be getting an update tomorrow with better clarification of what's really happening with it.

Vicki

Money and upkeep are also factors for the BLM but when users were discussing the pros and cons, they weren't focused on money, they were focused on safety.

Vicki

Keep in mind that even when it is done, it won't be paved in a way that we think of as "paved."

I guess the best way to describe it would be, it will no longer be a graded dirt road. Ground-up pavement will be spread on it to help alleviate the dust problems.

The idea of paving the entrance road has been argued against for a long time, if only because a smoother road encourages faster speeds. This should achieve as close to a compromise as we can get... we still won't be able to speed along the road but the dust problem will keep the anti-access groups from raising hell and closing the road altogether.

Vicki

good to see ya here Vicki

!!!

Good to be here and I am very sorry for my absence.

A quick tale of woe here...

At the end of May our waterbed failed and subsequently ruined our bedroom carpeting, which was quickly replaced with some fabulous laminated flooring.

Then comes two seniors graduating and a vacation in Idaho.

Three days after returning from Idaho, a water line bursts in the front bathroom, flooding both bathrooms, one and 1/2 kid bedrooms, 50% of a hallway and, of course, 1/3 of our fabulous new laminated flooring in the master bedroom.

Began repairs and a few days later discovered puddling in the hallway... just outside the water heater storage closet.

So, since June we have been up to our you-know-whats in projects, some necessary and some thrown in because heck, we were doing the other stuff anyway. One gutted and remodeled bathroom, three gutted and remodeled small bedrooms and ceramic tiling in hallway, entryway and living room later, I'm finally getting to where I have time to think about something other than SAND, TAPE, PAINT, CEMENT, TILE, GROUT, SAND, TAPE, PAINT, CEMENT, TILE, GROUT.

That's the end of the tales of woe. I feel better now.

I'm thrilled to be back in action so let's get back to talking about lifting closures and avoiding new ones.

Vicki

Thanks for the info, Vicki.

Please keep us updated on how everthing turns out for those that are unable to attend.

You bet.

And I know time is short but if anyone who is not able to attend has anything they'd like specifically addressed, please post it here.

Vicki

This isn't going to be a very warm and fuzzy answer...

Reopening already closed land is a dandy idea. Opening Kelso dunes would be absolutely wonderful. A more like victory would be the Rice Valley dunes that were not closed under a Congressional act, but rather, closed by the BLM due to "under usage."

Either fight is daunting and costly though and, well, the user groups are already struggling just to fight the battles they are embroiled in. Finding time and money to start even the most worthy fight is the problem we all face.

It's not a matter of what would work or what is worthy. Every fight for land access is worthy.

The problem is time and money, and that's the sad fact of it.

Vicki

Here are some of the recommended additions to the agenda:

Dumont Dunes Road/Water Crossing

Trash pick-up

Supplemental Rules

2008 Fee collection

Roxie Trost will also be giving a brief update on the Tecopa dumpster situation.

Vicki

Here is the draft agenda. Last I heard there were a couple other items being added... I'll fish them out and post them.

Also, the FoDD leaders on the TRT will be asking for an update on the petition to list the lizard species.

DRAFT

Agenda for August 21, 2007

Barstow Field Office

10:00 am.

Call To Order

Pledge

Introductions

Approval of the Agenda

Approval of the Minutes from the June 5, 2007 meeting

Lunch decision – pizza or sandwiches (Bring $8.00 cash)?

Updates:

Dumont Dunes Road (Roxie)

Community Discussions about the Dunes (Roxie)

Trash Pickup

Vendor Row location opinion from vendors

Discussion Items:

Fee collection structure

Members Items

Adjournment

We will work through lunch.