SailAway

Excellent! I'll do some more research in the meantime. I like the idea of discounts for disabled persons, vets and senior citizens. I just do not know if it's feasible at Dumont, unfortunately. Hopefully we can figure out a way that we don't have to raise the fees to allow it, and don't make it unduly burdensome for the pass handlers (which would also raise our fees) and can keep it simple enough but still fraud proof. Vicki

Yikes! I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else. I thought Terry and I had been doing a decent job answering the questions. My apologies. If the answers are not satisfactory, I would suggest you attend the next TRT meeting and address it again with the BLM. I have attempted to explain the way I see it; obviously we do not see it the same way, which is dandy and fine. See you at the next TRT meeting. Vicki

Actually I'm afraid I'm not playing devil's advocate. The fee systems are complex. Perhaps I have been a little simplistic in my explanations but that is because the text of the whole thing, let alone deciphering it, is terribly daunting. Once you find and read the full wording of the legislation that allows fees to be charged, you will start to see things like "improved" areas and "special recreation" and many more that will keep the system evolving. According to the National Parks Service: It might seem that "cost recovery fee" and "entrance fee" are one and the same but in the case of Dumont, I think a judge would find the distinction easily. But hey, it would certainly be an interesting court battle. Speaking as myself and not as FoDD, I have to say that I don't agree with having to pay any kind of fee to use public land. Finally, while I completely agree that this is something that can be addressed by the TRT and absolutely encourage you to attend the next meeting to properly represent the issue, I would also just give a little caution to not get your hopes up too high. It seems to me that the government covered their backsides easily on this with the whole "fees vary widely" caveat. Vicki

According to the website... Dumont does not charge an entrance fee. For senior citizens and those with permanent disabilities, this has been added: The fee charged at Dumont is not an entrance fee. It is a use fee, based on cost recovery. Dumont does not charge "expanded amenity fees." Vicki

I know. I wracking my brain trying to think of a way we could fit something like this in... not just at Dumont but at other OHV areas as well. With the relatively recent 'pay to play' mentality taking over our funding sources, it really makes it tough to offer any kind of discount. Vicki

Thinking further on this... We would also have to come up with yet another pass, or maybe some kind of sticker to be put on a regular pass, that would tie that pass directly to the senior citizen or disabled vet who purchased it... in order to avoid someone buying it at a reduced rate and then either making a slight profit or simply handing it off to someone who is neither a senior citizen or a disabled vet. And there's still the matter of raising the overall fee so that Dumont is still properly funded. Vicki

hmmmm I wonder how that would work at a place like Dumont. At Yosemite, for instance, you pay your entry fee on the way in... and pay for camping or lodging separately. The entry and camping fees only go so far and then appropriations dollars and concessionaires concessionaires kick in to keep the whole thing running, along with maybe some other non-user funding coming from other sources. At Dumont the cost to enter is all wrapped up in one package and doesn't cover just entry and lodging but also emergency services and maintenance. Could it be used to get a Dumont pass at a reduced rate? Yes, I guess it could with the proper system in place, but I would also guess that would mean raising the overall rates to cover the reduction now that Dumont has become nearly 100% self-sustaining. Vicki

Ah. The short answer is, there's nothing like that at this moment. The long answer is, anything can change and if that's something you would like to fight for, I'm sure you'd find plenty of support. I was just told something that I have to verify... I was told that the Golden Eagle pass is only good for entry and not good for overnight stays. Does anyone else know if this is accurate? Vicki

One other thing... At one time the BLM was considering pooling their money to have State-level BLM handle the funding of the areas. One big pot of money and then they'd distribute it among the various BLM areas. If that happened, they would consider having one pass that would cover all OHV areas or maybe just one pass for all sand areas. The suggestion got dropped... the local BLM offices like being in charge of their own funding... but it was once and could be considered again. Vicki

Since the question was addressed to Terry I was going to wait for him to answer it. I have asked this question already and have been given mixed answers. Right now the answer is no, the Pass does not cover the use fees for Dumont (or Glamis for that matter). Should they? That's a good question and one that's been around since the Golden Eagle passes came into existence. The main argument against them is, the amount of money that would be coming into the area that we are using. The fees we pay when entering Dumont are used to sustain our use at Dumont. They go only to Dumont, not any other public land area. Arguably, since Dumont does receive some appropriated (Federal) dollars, I suppose some of that could be coming from the sale of Golden Eagle passes. But those funds would be spread out throughout public lands. So... would Dumont be receiving its fair share? Vicki

Because of the Freedom of Information Act, anything and everything the government does should be accessible. Here's a link to a website that describes the Act and includes a link on how to file a FOIA request. http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/index.html Vicki

I don't think taking this route is the absolute worse way to go... but I think it is re-inventing the wheel. Why do the same work that others are already doing? Learning and educating ourselves is very important. We'll never be able to keep Dumont open to riding unless we get a working knowledge of how to keep it open. But... I do think following protocol goes a long way and is much more efficient. Yes, the BLM can answer the questions... from 60,000 different people. Or they can answer the questions posed to them by the people who represent 60,000 people and rely on those representatives to pass that information along. Vicki

There is no division, only specialties, and in my opinion that's not a bad thing. Each area has specific needs that cannot be addressed by an "umbrella" organization. So, for instance, Friends of Oceano Dunes works alongside CORVA, BRC, DUNERS, Friends of Sand Mountain, Friends of Dumont Dunes and many others, in the overall fight for access rights, but when an issue specific to that area comes down, they take the lead because they are knowledgeable in the specific issues of that area. Friends of Oceano Dunes is a good organization that has championed the Oceano cause very well. Right now they need help and that's where all those other organizations come in. Now is the time when every pro-access organization should be rousing their members into action. Oceano is an important fight and we should all be doing whatever we can to keep it open. Vicki

Absolutely. I'd really hate to see tomorrow's meeting get all crazy because of this. Is there a problem? Seems to be the case. Now... how much of a problem, what can or should be done about it, what are the options, etc... those are all things that will bring us to a solution. The people in this BLM office really are not our enemies. They've worked well with us in the past and present and I absolutely expect them to keep working with us in the future. Vicki

For what it's worth, both the donated Funco truck and the trash truck used in the south dunes have absolutely nothing to do with GlamisDunes.com. Volunteers use those vehicles in the dunes and any GD.com advertising on the Funco truck was paid for. V.

I had a brief moment yesterday afternoon where it was very slow to come up but I've been on it off and on many times since then, a mere seconds ago. *shrug* Vicki

You could be right... but not as it pertains to global warming. Overpopulation and pollution are conservation issues. All the conservation in the world isn't going to stop the warming trend that started 18,000 years ago. Vicki

Just to clear something up here... I'm not trying to push anyone into buying a premium membership. Either way makes no difference to me. I guess I just don't understand the animosity that is being felt towards a website that is operating the way they see fit and I wanted to express how I see things from my viewpoint. I also will say that I've had my moments of not having faith in GD.com's focus... but I do see a turn-around and can only hope for the best. Vicki

No, but only because it's not enough and would be redundant. Why pay for something that is already paid for. Instead, I will give as I have always given, and in more ways than money. Why do you ask? Vicki

Fighting for access to our public riding areas is not done on only one battlefield. There are legal arenas, political arenas and scientific arenas to name a few. What GlamisDunes can offer to the fight is on the ground support for the area. Adopt-A-Wash, cleanups, rider education, conservation education. These are things that are being done now... with far grander plans for the future. Right now there are no 'organizations' doing what GlamisDunes is doing for Glamis. Are they doing other things? Sure. But Glamis must have more. Yes, there's the yearly cleanup... but it is not what it used to be and yes, DUNERS has a dandy little program called Junior Duners... but we haven't had a session in the dunes for far too long. Even if DUNERS picks up the pace and the annual cleanup makes a comeback, there is still plenty of room for more. Support or don't support, that's each individual's choice. I want those on the ground efforts to continue because I have seen the difference they make. I believe that is the strongest foothold we have. And that's what I support. Vicki

Global Warming is a great big hot (pardon the pun) topic right now. And it's a great big steaming pile of, well, you get the point. Here's a little quiz hosted by a non-partisan website... the information is great. http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/GlobWarmTest/start.html Vicki

We were there! At the last minute when all of our camping group decided to bail out of a trip to the dunes, we decided to help our just-turned-21 year old son celebrate in true Vegas style. I didn't even know about the Grand Prix until we made reservations so it was a great surprise! We stayed at Fitzgerald's and asked for rooms on the east side so we could catch Turn 9 from our window. What a blast it was! And Fremont Street was better than usual... almost as good as New Year's Eve. We'll be there next year for sure, this time for the races! Vicki

I don't think there is one person among us who would not love to get paid for what they love to do, whether that is writing articles for a magazine, lobbying for OHV rights in Washington, or spending more time with a website aimed at their favorite riding area. But this move by GlamisDunes.com is more than that... GD.com has tremendous potential to help keep Glamis open to riding and to maybe even getting some of the restrictions lifted, no kidding. There are many ways to fight for our access rights... political one-on-one with our legislative representatives and fighting fire with fire through lawsuits against the anti-access organizations are two ways. In the end though, actual on-the-ground changes and dune community support is what will make the real difference. It is, absolutely, the reason Glamis is not a wilderness area today. Some may know the story of how close Glamis came to being declared completely off-limits. One particularly bad duning season, a ranger was involved in an altercation at the sand drags. Closure groups started demanding total closure of the dunes because of the "out of control" atmosphere. It would have taken very little to have the whole place signed into oblivion as a wilderness area at that point. A budding on-the-ground program, created and supported by people who duned the area, kept that from happening. This was before there were any organizations actively focusing their fight on Glamis... no ASA, no DUNERS. But there was a group of individuals who had started something they called the Checkered Flag Program. Although it was later adopted by the ASA, it started out as a way for a group of people to identify others in the duning community as "responsible duners." The theory was, basically, anyone flying a checkered flag was a "good guy" and the rangers should feel at ease among that crowd. The program was taken to Washington as an example of how the users of an area can band together to fight to keep their area open and to open their eyes to the real dune community. It worked. The people in Washington had only ever heard the Mad Maxx stories of the dune community and had no idea there were good guys fighting for their right to ride on their public lands. Glamis escaped the butcher block briefly... it wasn't until lawsuits were later filed by three closure groups that Glamis lost half its riding area. You see... what kept Glamis safe for the moment wasn't contributions to campaigns, lawsuits, petitions... it was people. Dune users who were willing to take a stand and support their area. GlamisDunes has some very grand plans in this regard... yes, as a website it has gone off track from time to time but they are fighting their way back to the goal, and that is... to keep Glamis open to riding and to lift the closures that were allowed all those years ago. This is really tough to do as a part-time job. Success comes very slowly when the fight can only be fought after working hours and on the weekends. GlamisDunes has the numbers and its members have the passion. Maybe asking a mere $5.95 per month from members who want additional privileges will bring the fight a little closer to full time. Vicki

I asked the BLM about speedbumps yesterday and here's the response: So... if anyone is interested in pursuing this idea, April 17th's TRT meeting would be a dandy time to do it! Vicki

This may be a long one so please bear with me... I'm glad to find this being discussed here... I wondered what other people "outside the inner circle" might think of what was going on over at GlamisDunes. It's hard to tell what is real over there and what is not... there seems to be a lot of posturing but very little else, from all sides. Let me say this before I go on... anyone who knows me knows that I also play in Glamis sand and that I run a Glamis-focused organization called DUNERS. It's a small group, politically active, with no "strings" attached to the BLM or any other Glamis-focused organization. And, anyone who knows me also knows that I am very vocal about the current state of Glamis affairs which more often than not puts me at odds with the El Centro BLM office and other Glamis-focused organizations. Although I've fallen off a bit lately, I used GlamisDunes often in my crusade to right the wrongs at Glamis, as I felt it offered a good sampling of the duning community. That being said, when I first read that GlamisDunes was going to start charging their members for certain privileges, I was shocked and dismayed. Not so much at charging for things like posting an ad... that's pretty common practice anymore on some of the bigger sites, as I learned 2 years ago when selling my golf cart. More, I was dismayed at the option of access to a new area called Girls of Glamis or something like that. I am very much against exploiting Glamis for things like Glamis Gone Wild and certainly wouldn't put any money towards having access to such a thing. Thankfully that new area was dropped like a hot potato, almost before the thought was fully formed. The other "perks" are meaningless to me and, I'm pretty sure, to the average user over there. I have never seen the attraction of the MILF forum and although I posted some pretty decent HILF pictures in the HILF forum, it's been a very long time since I've been in there and certainly wouldn't miss it. Rep points? A silly concept in my opinion and couldn't care less if they stay or go, same with tagging. There are other 'perks' but all in all it doesn't seem like much in the way of changes to deal with, or pay for, not for me at least. By the way... I am a premium member. Not because I paid for it, which I did not... it was granted to me partly because of my role as a pro-access leader and also because of moderating a newly-formed DUNERS forum. I truly could not care less one way or another about being a premium member and was quite surprised to see my name in purple. *shrug* So where did my shock and dismay go? Passed. I took a day away from it, read just about each and every post that was posted on the subject and gave it some good hard thought. Could the new "premium package" have been unveiled in a better way? You bet. The facts support the action... the buy and sell forum is a big deal to the members but it also eats up a lot of bandwith, not to mention time dealing with the friggen spammers and hackers. Charging to post an ad is an extremely efficient way to keep out the spammers. And there were complaints about the MILF and HILF sections being available to children, but there were also a lot of people taking a peek, and often. Charging to peek is an efficient way to keep them on the down-low but not out of reach entirely. Will premium memberships make the administrators a ton of money? Not a chance. 90% of what is used the most is still free to the non-paying user. Once the initial shock wears off there will still be as much post-whoring and whine-and-cheezing as ever, and premium memberships will die off. What does worry me is seeing things like "DDR will NEVER [do this or that]." Never is such a harsh word and no one ever knows what will happen in the future. I remember watching other people's kids misbehave and saying "I will NEVER allow my child to act that way" until suddenly I was raising a child who acted exactly that way. :blush: Never say never, is my point. DDR is a great site full of great people. It is not GD.com or DumontSandDunes.com or GlamisInfo.com or any of the other dozen or so dune-related websites. It is Dumont Dune Riders and it does what it does best for the people it services. Staying true to that won't always be easy and change is inevitable. Changing gracefully is an art. Learn from other people's mistakes :blush: and be graceful. Vicki