SailAway

Holy moly, put away the tar and feathers! No one, including me, said we CAN'T provide them. I merely pointed out the fact that it's been discussed and preempted the naysayers by pointing out what has already been pointed out to us before. As I said, I like the idea of membership cards... some don't, but I do and apparently you guys do too. VickiW

Great ideas here! We've talked about membership cards in the past and the logistics seemed to get in the way. While we're small, printing up membership cards is a snap. But as we grow it could become very cumbersome and the question has become, "is it worth it?" I personally like the idea of membership cards... for some reason I just like the look of them and always got a kick out of the ones I'd get from signing up with various organizations. But... once something like that is started it must be maintained and, well, in an all-volunteer organization there is often such a flux in volunteer help that maintaining these systems can become a problem. And then there are people who will wonder how much of their donation is going to pay for those membership cards versus their 'true' value. I'm certainly not against the idea. Like I said, I like membership cards. Just wanted to give people something to think about on the other end when considering what can and/or should be done. And we already have the tri-fold brochure we created last year and here is the text of our welcome letter: VickiW

Oh my goodness, I KNEW it could happen! Friends of Dumont Dunes did not start out and never wanted to be one of those organizations where members just throw money at it and let it do whatever it's going to do. Absolutely not. What Dumont needs is members of the community coming together to form the future of Dumont and that is what Friends of Dumont Dunes was designed for... to be the vehicle that helps the Dumont community reach its goals. This will take a lot more work from the community but I personally think the rewards are greater and that Dumont will be better for it. We're at a turning point in our dunes right now. Not only are we being targeted by the anti-access bad guys, but even people from within our community... irresponsible and out of control land users... they are unwittingly targeting us too, making us vulnerable and turning away the heart and soul of our users. Standing up and helping to wrestle control back into the hands of the people who love Dumont... the people who go there not just because they can but because they must... that's what the Dumont community needs to do and that's what is starting right here, right now. Most excellent. VickiW

Steamrolling wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) happen at Dumont... completely different situation than at Glamis... there shouldn't be any steamrolling at Glamis, but that's what it gets turned into quite often, even though there are plenty of issues to go around. Oh well, that's Glamis's loss. Fortunately for Dumont, while there is some overlapping with other user groups (CORVA is involved in all 'California' off-road issues, for instance), there is no competition for Dumont among those user groups. What I'm saying is, for instance, CORVA focuses on a broader scale and is thrilled to know that there are tighter-focused user groups like Friends of Dumont Dunes, Friends of El Mirage, etc., taking care of the needs of those specific areas. And CORVA would never presume to force any of those areas to be 'more like CORVA' or "bend" to CORVA in any way. It just wouldn't make sense (and would be a waste of everyone's already short time). Friends of Oceano would no more attempt to "take over" Dumont than Friends of Dumont Dunes would attempt to "take over" El Mirage. Each tightly-focused group knows their own area and the issues surrounding it and, quite frankly, we all have our hands full enough without trying to muscle in somewhere else. While there are many members of the ASA who visit Dumont (and vice-versa), the leaders of that organization have made it very clear to Terry and to me, that they have their own soup to stir and will offer any help they can, but will defer to Friends of Dumont Dunes on Dumont matters and have no desire to interfere. In that regard it's the same all over. If there is ever anything Friends of Dumont Dunes can do for Friends of Oceano Dunes, Friends of Sand Mountain, Friends of El Mirage, the American Sand Association, etc., FoDD will answer the call... and vice versa. Is there any "one" primary organization? Nope. Although CORVA helped to get many of the current user groups started and the BRC has been around forever, there is no real "parent" organization and my guess is there never will be. Then again, there are so many groups working together on the issues that face off-roaders today, each one keeping an eye on the big picture while focusing on their particular issues, parental leadership is not necessary. Networking... that's a different story. There should be lots and lots of networking and sharing of ideas among the leaders of the various organizations and for the most part that's true. Not always, but then again nothing is perfect. VickiW

What FoDD hasn't done will always be easier to reciount than what FoDD has done, although Terry made a pretty good list there. Mostly what we haven't done is beat the bushes for membership and money. I personally think that membership is most important and, with the help of many people, we're finally in a position to start building our membership base. Like Terry said, we have decided to eliminate the membership fee for now (by the way, all current members will get a bonus for their former paid membership... more on that later) so that it should be easier to get people involved. What we're 'losing' in membership fees is a small sacrifice for getting more people informed was the train of thought we followed on that. We will consider reinstating the fees later on, but for now it's more about getting people involved. We will still want to make sure that people who are signing up with FoDD realize what it is they are signing up for... so many people see "free" and figure what the heck, why not but that's not what we want. It's a fine line but an important one. Fundraising will be next. If the anti-access groups stay true to form, they will only increase their targeting of Dumont and I see the need for an attorney in the very near future. Fundraising will also increase with the help of many people, including those who have stepped up here in this thread. What will the money be used for? That's an important question. I personally don't believe in building a warchest just for the sake of having one, but here are more immediate goals to consider such as State and Federal lobby representation. FoDD has done well so far due to its affiliation with other organizations and the contacts that are in place with the leadership. But we can do more and this is one cost of fighting the fight that we really need to step up to. We just can't do that without a more stable cash flow. There's also several programs that we would like to institute at Dumont such as one focusing on getting the younger community members involved... start while they're young and being a responsible duner just comes naturally from generation to generation. While it's not an expensive program to run, there are small costs that have been borne by individual FoDD leaders in the past. As we grow, this will grow too. So why haven't we done this yet? Time... or lack of it would be my response. The leadership consists of working individuals, all volunteers, who have families and hobbies and work responsibilities of their own. It's not easy to work a full-time job, take care of a family and then also work a full-time job even for the most worthy of causes, Dumont. Sorry excuses, I know, but facts are facts. We've spent the last nearly two years basically playing catch-up with the organization. FoDD had a good start, but it had all but disappeared just prior to the "new" regime stepping in. Since that time we've worked behind the scenes, maintaining important contacts, establishing new ones, controlling the situation from the background, and that's kept us so busy that the foreground has fallen behind. Our public presence has been played down while we have been working behind the scenes... all while juggling families and paying jobs and other obligations. It's time to get the public presence going. Obviously the FoDD leadership needs help with this and thankfully, so many of you have stepped up to offer it. Together we can increase the strength of what we already have and create a new strength in those areas we are building! VickiW

Actually there has been 100% more FoDD presence at Dumont than at Glamis... that's because there is zero presence at Glamis. No signs, flyers, membership forms or brochures have been displayed or handed out at Glamis except one time years ago (4 years maybe?) with the former Friends of Dumont Dunes was invited to the annual Glamis cleanup to increase awareness of that area (but not to raise funds of course). Friends of Sand Mountain and Friends of Oceano Dunes were also invited. Other than that, even though the issues are similar, Dumont and Glamis, like Glamis and Oceano and Sand Mountain and Dumont, operate very much as their own areas. So what presence has FoDD had at Dumont? Absolutely the most high-profile and memorable is, of course, the cleanup, which has been in place since FoDD started years ago. What was added with the "new" FoDD was the tri-fold brochures handed out at the gate along with banners and signs. VickiW

I believe that in a very general, but absolutely real way, all pro-access organizations are fighting for all recreation areas. For instance, when Oceano Dunes takes a step forward or a step back, we all take that same step with them. What happens in each area very much has a ripple effect in the other areas. As such, the leaders of the various organizations try very hard to work together on the issues and each of us is always available to help the others when needed. I can personally attest to the fact that Friends of Dumont Dunes is very nicely supported not only by the leaders in CORVA (the organization that helped get FoDD started), but also by the leaders in such organizations as the American Sand Association because, well, for one thing immediately following the initial petition to list the lizard was filed, FoDD received phone calls, emails and private messages offering help in any way we might need it from those leaders. Please... don't let some of the "word play" you witness on various forums mislead you. Yes, there is some friction but it is not between organizations, it is between individuals. Above and beyond that nonsense there is the knowledge that no one (or handful of) individual/s is going to save or destroy an area and more importantly, there is not one OHV leader in all of the numbers of the OHV leaders, who would let that happen because of conflicting personalities or friction between individuals. Vicki

I've seen some checkered flags that also have logos on them... that might be an idea for DDR. The "non-denominational" (for lack of a better word) checkered flag wouldn't have any particular logo or saying, but for Dumont it could be a different colored checker (to set it apart from the flags at Glamis). I don't remember what color Oceano/Pismo chose but it would be easy enough to find out. VickiW

Crazy lady is true! I am SO GLAD IT'S FRIDAY. I thought this... meant you were expecting the to see the ASA trailer at Dumont, silly you. VickiW

I don't know that there will actually be an ASA trailer at Dumont (at Glamis vendor row is a different story). From what I understand SandBlaster will be offering a few ASA fundraising items through his business, but there won't be a separate trailer. SandBlaster... is that your understanding too? I cannot imagine the ASA setting up a Glamis fundraising trailer at Dumont, but I could be wrong. VickiW

Just got off the phone with Craig/SandBlaster... excellent conversation, lots of ground covered. He said he's happy to have Friends of Dumont Dunes membership forms available as well as the Dumont Dunes informational brochures we had printed up a while back. We haven't been focusing on fundraising so we don't have any items for sale (yet), but at this point information has its own value. Thank you Craig, for stepping up to support Friends of Dumont Dunes' effort to fight for the Dumont Dunes community! VickiW

The Checkered Flag program began many years ago by a guy named Jerry something. Not ASA co-founder Jerry Seaver, but another Jerry. VERY funny man... used to show up at events dressed as a clown (nose, hair, suit, huge shoes) and then make some funny (okay, maybe inappropriate) comments relating to the size of a man's shoe. Schaefer... Jerry Schaefer. I knew it would come to me. Anyway, he and his riding group started it as a way to identify each other. They were responsible duners, responsible land users, true believers in the tread lightly and pack-it-in-pack-it-out credos. It was actually Jerry Schaefer's checkered flag pledge that came into play when the very real threat of total closure first came up at Glamis. This was before the lawsuit that shut down 50,000 acres, before the now-obsolete Recreational Area Management Plan, heck even before the ASA. Glamis may be bad now, but it was worse back then and during one particularly bleak season some rangers were surrounded and threatened by an unruly crowd. The group Professional Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER, one of the 3 that eventually sued and won 50,000 acres closed), a Federal employee membership organization, complained long and loud that their officers were in danger out at Glamis and the only way to ensure safety was to shut it down. Jerry Schaefer's Checkered Flag Pledge made it under the noses of the movers and shakers in Washington DC as a way to show that what PEER was saying was a lie and that not ALL duners are bad duners. Pictures of duners sporting the checkered flag along with families and the true Glamis life were shown and it turned a terrible situation into one that could be reasoned with. It literally saved Glamis. Imagine that, this one man with his friends could do that. Since it's beginning it has morphed a little and is now synonymous with the American Sand Association, which is why quite often you will hear it referred to as the "ASA flag." The checkered flag is currently offered by the ASA in their fund raising efforts to protect the right to ride at Glamis The idea behind the checkered flag program is a strong one and other sand areas have adopted it... but they've changed the colors from black and white checkers to something else just so their flags are identified with their sand areas. It sounds like there is an interest in doing something like this at Dumont... not an impossible task at all. VickiW

The Consumer Product Safety Commission just posted notice of a recall on something that kids may be using in their costumes tonight...

Geez, TOUGH CROWD! Maybe he was just letting everyone know that sorry it's a Ford but at least it's lifted? Anyway... doesn't matter how anyone gets there as long as many do! Attendance at this meeting is especially important because they listened to the complaints that TRT meetings are always on a weekday and moved to a Saturday at least this one time. I haven't seen an agenda yet but that's not unusual... the meeting is a ways away just yet. When one is available it will get posted. Someone also asked in an earlier post if this was a public meeting and if there would be time for public comment and the answer is yes to both questions, always. VickiW.

Yeah, I'm 95% sure this was CourtTV filming a segment of something they call "Party Police" and I personally think it was irresponsible for them to be out there on this weekend. It sounds like they got what they were looking for, and I'm sure the show will turn out looking like we're all a bunch of backward jackasses. Bad because of the faction that wants to shut us down adding this to their kindling, bad because of the families who will see it and may now think Dumont is NO place they want to be and bad because it will be one more excuse for a legislator who won't touch us with a 10-foot pole. What's good? Well, until this all came up I'd never heard of "party police" and we can always hope it disappears into obscurity like so many other un-watched shows. VickiW

Yes, there is only one from Nevada, one from California, one from the film industry, etc. I think perhaps you are missing the point of TRT representation. The point to having a representative 'council' is so that those interested constituents can use their representative to act on their behalf. And no one TRT member has a stronger voice than another. That means that, as a Nevada off-roader, Terry can bring your concerns to the TRT for you... just as the film industry representative brings those concerns to the table, the law enforcement representative brings those concerns to the table, so on and so forth. There will never be two film industry representatives but if there were, they would be bringing all the same issues to the table for discussion. Now... one representative may indeed bring two opposing thoughts to the table ("One guy suggested we charge additional fees for filming and another guy suggested we lower the fees for filming") because, well, they don't get to pick and choose what they bring from their constituents. If it comes to them, it goes to the TRT. It would be a waste and just plain silly to have two film industry representatives appointed and would take up a seat that might be filled by another body who has a "stake" in what happens to the area (be it Dumont or somewhere else). That said... it is ALWAYS better to have as many members of the public on hand as possible. It lets the BLM see the community they are dealing with face-to-face. This particular meeting has been discussed at length in prior posts here and on DumontSandDunes.com. In fact, the TRT has been a hot topic of discussion off and on, as you will find if you take a moment to acquaint yourself with the subject of TRT by doing a simple search of the forum databases. The TRT is fairly new to Dumont so now that your interest has been piqued in Dumont it won't take long to catch up on the issues. As I said, a simple search here at Dumont Dune Riders will bring a wide variety of interesting previous discussions including the battle to get a TRT meeting scheduled on a Saturday (an event we hope to repeat). VickiW

I do not have any personal information for you, but I may have another possible lead the family can consider...l A "camera crew" and "videotaping" has been mentioned and I believe it may have been part of a project that was originally scheduled for opening weekend (but I had heard it was canceled), a CourtTV program called "Party Police." I have not (yet) confirmed whether that project did indeed go forward but will post as soon as I am certain. If it did, and they were the ones videotaping the interviews, the Banshee rider's representatives might want a copy of it and should consider contacting CourtTV once the situation has been confirmed. VickiW

Yes, I plan on it. My family's a little miffed by it since they'll all be in Glamis (traditional week-long Thanksgiving trip) but I think they'll survive. V.

Ynot (TRT) is on the TRT as the representative of Nevada off-roaders and Sandemon (John) is on the TRT as a representative of Friends of Dumont Dunes. I am president of Friends of Dumont Dunes and I try to attend the TRT meetings whenever possible, but I am not on the TRT. That said... you can come to me anytime with any thoughts and if it's something I think only the TRT can handle, that's where it will go. If it's something I can help with, I will. vickiw@friendsofdumontdunes.org VickiW

My concerns over this revised proposed critical habitat are shared by many in the off-road community. Yes, the overall acreage was reduced. However, additional "management recommendations" were included and, well, we all know what will happen if those recommendations aren't followed. Now... if the PMV is somehow delisted from the Federal Endangered Species act, critical habitat would become a moot point. To an extent. Let's not forget that the PMV is only listed as "threatened" under the Federal Endangered Species Act. It is listed as "endangered" under the California act, and delisting from one does not automatically delist it from the other. And although Glamis is on Federal land, it is located in the State of California and therefore governed by California regulations as well as Federal regulations. In fact, the El Centro BLM relies heavily upon the California Native Plant Society when making decisions regarding various species in the dunes. Critical habitat aside, delisted from the ESA or not, the PMV is not leaving the radar for a very long time. VickiW

Except that even if the PMV is delisted, those court-ordered closures will remain in effect, more so considering the recent decision on the critical habitat. But I am glad to see such a public display of support from the Imperial County Board of Supervisors. VickiW

Yeah, I read a lot of that when it was first released. The court settlement/agreement between the BLM and the anti-access guys was not a win for us, and no amount of posturing by CBD associates will change that. As for the listing, of course the petition was denied... only after the BLM had rolled over on everything else. Protecting the butterfly... listing it... was never the issue. Off-road vehicle restrictions (without supporting data) was the goal and it was achieved in spades. You want to talk about chipping away at an area, Sand Mountain is a perfect example. And I predict here and now it won't be the last. Next time it won't be the butterfly, it will be something else, and the BLM in charge of Sand Mountain will negotiate and surrender an acre at a time once again. VickiW

Also, for a quick reality check, here's the description of this project from the starting post on this thread: Perhaps it is the word "fence" that is so alarming, as it seems that everyone is in agreement that some kind of markers need to be in place. This is post and cable, not chain-link and barbed wire. VickiW

In reading back through some of this thread, I realized I need to clarify something. The fencing that is the subject of this thread, and for which a green sticker grant has been submitted, is to clearly delineate the boundary between certain off-limit areas and some of our open riding areas. The fencing that is the subject of this thread is not going to encompass the entire open riding area. That subject is for a different thread altogether and should be discussed at great length within the community and its leaders. VickiW

For some reason I'm having trouble replying with quotes so I will just have to wing it. The following responses are to statements made by rpost in what he posted at 7:03 pm yesterday. I think I understand what you’re saying but the fact of the matter here, in this particular instance is, those closures surrounding Dumont’s open riding area aren’t going away tomorrow. Or this season or even next season. Anyone who understands how these closures are created knows the time it would take to even begin to get them lifted. Years. And in the meantime, we have a very real problem. We don’t have years. While moving this fence inward may be possible (not probable, but possible), it would be detrimental to the Dumont community to ignore our immediate problems while holding out for that hope. There have not been any environmental protectionist losses with either the milk vetch or the butterfly that I know of. If you are referring to the “reduced” critical habitat of the peirson’s milk vetch, please do further research and you will learn that this reduction was indeed not a loss to the anti-access movement, and they have won in court at every possible turn. As for the butterfly I have to assume you are talking about Sand Mountain’s butterfly and again, the anti-access faction has not suffered even minor losses in that battle. Perhaps you are talking about another milk vetch and butterfly? I must disagree here. Lifting those closures is such a long-range goal that if and when any or all of those closed areas become open, the cost of a long-ago erected fence will not even figure into an equation. Again, I absolutely agree with this statement as it pertains to the overall pro-access movement. But again we are not talking in generalities, we are talking about a particular problem that is very much within our control to change. The only 'freedom' this fencing will inhibit is illegal riding. There are many injustices occurring against the pro-access community but this is not one of them and it is unfair to confuse the casual reader on this issue. Of this I have no doubt. It’s happening all over our ‘open’ deserts. But again, this sweeping statement does not pertain to the immediate fencing concern at Dumont. My point exactly. In the here and now, this issue must be dealt with as quickly as possible if we are going to protect what we have before it is under immediate threat. At the same time, the ‘big picture’ is been tended to... there are cleanups and flyers and information outlets (such as this message board) and meetings attended and senators getting phone calls. Everything is happening here and now, with graver attention being given to some issues, as necessary. You are right... every play matters to the overall outcome of a football game. And this proactive move is one of many field goals we need to change the outcome of our game. You have some wonderful ideas and brother, I stand beside you in your desire to reverse the pre-existing closures. If and when you are ready to spear-head that fight, I will do everything I can to assist you. VickiW