Dumont Dunes TRT meeting

[wsky70]

^^^^^Here, here....

[Crowdog]

Thanks for the report Woody. And thanks to you and everyone else that made it to the meeting.

[Richard Cheese]

woody

thanks for representing us at the meeting

I have an idea about the fees. what do you think about 30 dollars for the major holidays, like halloween, thanksgiving, prez, etc, cause that is when the biggest expenses are for the money allocated to dumont?

and keep it @ 20 bucks for off weeks?

[wsky70]

That was talked about some also. But Terry (ynot) and Vicki (Sail-away) are the members with the voice. Just a few of us reg duners showed up, but they were very interested in what we had to say. Last year the state gave them aprox 1M for Dumont, this year they are not getting anything at all. So that has to be made up somewhere. I like that idea also, but in the end they need to make over 1M dollars just to keep the place the way it is now. I'm sure Terry has a much better Idea on how things are working out. I'll be looking for Terry's or Vicki's post, it will be much more informative than mine. I will in the future be attending the meetings. It was good to learn some new things as to see what goes on out there... SF Woody

[SailAway]

Now let's see what I can fill in...

This will be a long one so grab a beverage and relax...

I was pleased to see that the TRT and the BLM representatives were clever enough to see that the primary agenda item would be the fee increase. Although there were some other important items on the agenda, anything else that was handled was done so very quickly so we could spend as much time as possible on the pivotal issue.

Before we get to that though, I do want to assure everyone that the other important items (supplemental rules, camp racers, metal stakes) were only "tabled" for now and will be addressed at the next meeting.

Okay, on to the fees...

One thing to keep in mind from the beginning is that we are not paying a "use" fee. We are not paying to be able to camp, use the bathroom, ride our toys. The legislation that is allowing us to be charged is based strictly on "cost recovery." To oversimplify this, that means we are paying only to cover the costs of operating the riding area... maintenance of the road, ranger services, etc., whether we have one bike in the back of our truck or a $200K motorhome.

There are several funding sources for Dumont. Primarily they are user fees, appropriated dollars and grant money (also known as 'green sticker money').

The expenses for maintaining the 'status quo' at Dumont, which would leave the level of services exactly as they were last year (law enforcement, bathrooms, emergency services, etc.), come to approximately 1.1 million dollars.

Of that, Dumont usually receives appropriated/federal dollars (usually around $400K) and grant/green sticker dollars (usually around $200k) and the rest is paid through user fees.

The grant cycle this year brought zero dollars and the appropriated dollars dropped down to less than a third of what can usually be expected. (The whys and wherefores of the evaporated funding should be discussed, but not here... let's start another topic and get that ball rolling for such an important discussion.)

That means for this season the money is still there, since the grant and appropriated dollars are in place via last year's funding cycle... but next year we will simply not have the money we have been getting because the appropriated dollars were so drastically reduced and grant money dried up entirely.

And that, unfortunately, means only one thing... a hike in user fees.

The initial proposal was based on a three-tiered pass system: 3-day, 10-day and annual. After a lot of discussion it was decided that having three levels of pass is a management nightmare.

At one point we were asked to name a figure of what we would be willing to pay to recreate at Dumont. This is an unfair question and skews the results... excellent tactic though, as it plays on guilt and loyalty and greed all at once. Of course we will all pay whatever we have to pay... but that has nothing to do with what is right or fair.

And we didn't fall for it. Instead, we hammered out the numbers and then came up with something more reasonable that we thought would maintain the level of services and will keep the family duners coming back.

Now... something everyone needs to know is, the bulk of our labor expenses (law enforcement, ranger staffing, emergency services) are from the extra personnel needed for the big weekends (Halloween, Thanksgiving, New Years, President's Day, Easter). Because of this, after MAJOR discussion and lots of back and forth, we proposed the following:

$30 a week

$40 if stay includes a holiday weekend

$120 a year (full access)

$90 a year (blackout for 5 holiday weekends)

$10 at the gate if you hold a $90 pass and arrive during a holiday period

We'll talk about the logistics of this proposal in a moment.

What this tiered system would do, we felt, was keep the money coming in where the money is most needed and not force the users who will not be using the riding area during the high-cost periods to pay for those high-cost periods.

This is, of course, contingent upon some extra research. The BLM will be looking into exactly how many more passes are sold during those five holiday weekends and will verify that this system will maintain our current level of services. I expect to hear from the BLM very shortly on this and will keep everyone posted.

The logistics... of all the things that were discussed yesterday in regards to passes and enforcement of passes, this seemed to spark the most interest in the BLM. Apparently this kind of thing is done elsewhere and the program is easy to follow and will keep the enforcement problem to a minimum. I was encouraged by their enthusiasm for this proposal.

And, this proposal is also contigent upon being able to reduce the operating budget by at least 10%, no small potatoes when we're talking about $1.1 million. But... I feel very confident that it can be done and will be done.

We helped a little in that regard yesterday when we opened the discussion on vendors at Dumont. What the vendors are paying now is based on an honor system where they pay a percentage of what they make out at Dumont. For now, for the sake of moving along, we are going to accept that all have been honorable in their accounting (to be dealt with at a later date). Aside from that though, we were told that the vendors pay their vending permit fees but not the cost recovery fee that the rest of us pay. Yes, we are aware that there are vendors who are not just out at Dumont selling, they are also using the same resources the rest of us are using. We felt it was not a fair system and have asked the BLM to start charging vendors the same entry fee they are charging everyone else. This is a win-win situation and relieves a strain on the BLM and the folks who sell the permit because they will no longer have to deal with "But I'm with Joe Blow vending and shouldn't have to pay a fee." The BLM is looking into the vending regulations to make sure there is nothing prohibiting them from charging the vending fee and an additional entry fee. I will research this also and will report back what I learn.

There are other areas where costs can be recovered and we will be working very closely with the BLM to make sure this happens.

I think that's about it for now, at least for the primary focus of the meeting...

Vicki

Edited March 7, 2007 by SailAway

[Mr. Edgy]

That was an excellent report Vicki. This is the kind of information that all of us need to be aware of. It also allows the casual reader to get some insight as to what "Hot Buttons" the BLM/TRT have. I hate to admit it, but it appears we will be seeing an increase in user fees. Thanks for the info!!!!!

[sandaddict]

Hi everyone I am Raptoroys wife. We also went to the TRT meeting yesterday. We wanted to Thank everyone at the meeting for being very welcoming to us. Any questions and concerns we had were listened to and ideas we had were discussed. These people are very interested in keeping us (the duners) as happy as they can and also keep the dunes open and operable. Unfortunately it looks like the fees will be raised , but I feel they will try and do it in the best possible way. We will also be going back for the next meeting.

It was also nice to meet a few other DDR members while we were there.

[YFZ Chick]

Even though fees were a big issue to us the dunning community that has to pay them.

I just wanted to add and I hope none of you do this... "Pack it in Pack it out" we all know what this means what you bring into the dunes, you take out of the dunes, and all the way home. In the meeting we talked about the surrounding communities and how there are many people that leave the trash in there dumpsters and it has been found to be duners trash.

My quick blurp is take your trash all the way home don't dump it in the local cities trash cans, by dumping it there we are losing the support of these cities. Just spead the word to eachother---

[Richard Cheese]

Even though fees were a big issue to us the dunning community that has to pay them.

I just wanted to add and I hope none of you do this... "Pack it in Pack it out" we all know what this means what you bring into the dunes, you take out of the dunes, and all the way home. In the meeting we talked about the surrounding communities and how there are many people that leave the trash in there dumpsters and it has been found to be duners trash.

My quick blurp is take your trash all the way home don't dump it in the local cities trash cans, by dumping it there we are losing the support of these cities. Just spead the word to eachother---

yeah, and the freekin smokers EVERY freekin time I pull into dumont, and set up camp, there are cigarette butts EVERYWHERE!!!! and you smokers wonder why the world is against you :no_no:

[sandaddict]

Even though fees were a big issue to us the dunning community that has to pay them.

I just wanted to add and I hope none of you do this... "Pack it in Pack it out" we all know what this means what you bring into the dunes, you take out of the dunes, and all the way home. In the meeting we talked about the surrounding communities and how there are many people that leave the trash in there dumpsters and it has been found to be duners trash.

My quick blurp is take your trash all the way home don't dump it in the local cities trash cans, by dumping it there we are losing the support of these cities. Just spead the word to eachother---

I agree the trash is a big issue. Take your trash home and put it on "your" curb or in "your" apartment dumpsters or even when you dump some places provide dumpsters for your trash and it is included in your dump fees. It basically boils down to, your an adult act like one and clean up after yourself.

[dman74]

yeah, and the freekin smokers EVERY freekin time I pull into dumont, and set up camp, there are cigarette butts EVERYWHERE!!!! and you smokers wonder why the world is against you :no_no:

always someone thats got to get off topic and attack others

this is supposed to be what happened at the trt not attacks on others

[SandBox_Kid]

always someone thats got to get off topic and attack others

this is supposed to be what happened at the trt not attacks on others

You don't consider cigarette butts to be trash that should be part of the "pack it in, pack it out" ?

I didn't see it as an attack or off topic.... :no_no:

[dman74]

You don't consider cigarette butts to be trash that should be part of the "pack it in, pack it out" ?

I didn't see it as an attack or off topic.... :no_no:

fine then as stated before this is supposed to be about what happened at the meeting or am i wrong there to

[SandBox_Kid]

fine then as stated before this is supposed to be about what happened at the meeting or am i wrong there to

:no_no: Allow me to explain then......

Jennifer stated that one thing she wanted to bring back from the meeting and share was the "pack it in, pack it out" program....and don't dump it at Dumont or anywhere except home for that matter.

Richard chimed in on her post and said that he felt cig butts also fit into that criteria. Don't just throw them to the ground, be responsible about smoking and find an ashtray or empty can to properly dispose of them. Take them with your trash...because after all they are trash.

Since I took the time to answer your question why won't you answer mine?

Again.....you don't consider cigarette butts to be trash that should be part of the "pack it in, pack it out" ?

[dman74]

Allow me to explain then......

Jennifer stated that one thing she wanted to bring back from the meeting and share was the "pack it in, pack it out" program....and don't dump it at Dumont or anywhere except home for that matter.

Richard chimed in on her post and said that he felt cig butts also fit into that criteria. Don't just throw them to the ground, be responsible about smoking and find an ashtray or empty can to properly dispose of them. Take them with your trash...because after all they are trash.

Since I took the time to answer your question why won't you answer mine?

Again.....you don't consider cigarette butts to be trash that should be part of the "pack it in, pack it out" ?

i did in a pm you are probably reading now :no_no:

so everyone else can read the response in short form

they are trash not everyone does this with there butts

Edited March 7, 2007 by dman74

[SandBox_Kid]

i did in a pm you are probably reading now :no_no:

Hope you feel better.

[04toy]

To all those who went to the meeting and represented us, THANK YOU!!

RichardCheese: Not ALL smokers treat the world as their personal ash tray. A small group of smokers give the whole group a bad reputation, the same as a small group of irresponsible dune riders give the rest a bad reputation. I got the spirit of your message but perhaps it could've been stated a bit better. :no_no:

Now let's get back on topic of what we as a group can do to help keep Dumont Dunes open without huge fees!!

[dinicolady]

My quick blurp is take your trash all the way home don't dump it in the local cities trash cans, by dumping it there we are losing the support of these cities. Just spead the word to eachother---

We were notified at least one season ago, that the dump station at Tecopa will take our sh*t, but not our trash. We obliged by hauling it home from then on.

However....

The main concern of this issue is the trash along the highway and other roadsides. Folks are either dropping it along side, or giving the benefit of the doubt, it is blowing out of the back of vehicles. THAT'S where we ALL need to be more careful and secure the trash bags. I'm not sure, but maybe taking plate #'s and reporting them to highway patrol, these careless jerk-offs will get fines for littering, and maybe, just MAYBE learn to be a little more careful out there!!

Just my

:no_no:

[dman74]

To all those who went to the meeting and represented us, THANK YOU!!

RichardCheese: Not ALL smokers treat the world as their personal ash tray. A small group of smokers give the whole group a bad reputation, the same as a small group of irresponsible dune riders give the rest a bad reputation. I got the spirit of your message but perhaps it could've been stated a bit better. :no_no:

Now let's get back on topic of what we as a group can do to help keep Dumont Dunes open without huge fees!!

thank you someone else got what i meant

[04toy]

However....

The main concern of this issue is the trash along the highway and other roadsides. Folks are either dropping it along side, or giving the benefit of the doubt, it is blowing out of the back of vehicles. THAT'S where we ALL need to be more careful and secure the trash bags. I'm not sure, but maybe taking plate #'s and reporting them to highway patrol, these careless jerk-offs will get fines for littering, and maybe, just MAYBE learn to be a little more careful out there!!

Just my

:no_no:

If I recall correctly wasn't the idea of a group cleanup of highway 127 being tossed around? That would get the trash picked up AND get people to see that their trash may not be as secure as they think it is.

[SandBox_Kid]

RichardCheese: Not ALL smokers treat the world as their personal ash tray. A small group of smokers give the whole group a bad reputation, the same as a small group of irresponsible dune riders give the rest a bad reputation. I got the spirit of your message but perhaps it could've been stated a bit better. :no_no:

Well stated. Shows you put some thought into it.

[dinicolady]

yeah, and the freekin smokers EVERY freekin time I pull into dumont, and set up camp, there are cigarette butts EVERYWHERE!!!! and you smokers wonder why the world is against you

Excuse me Mr. Cheese, just a friendly little FYI...not ALL smokers do that. We are very responsible with our butts, they are either thrown into the fire or disposed of with the rest of our trash. Hell, we even pack them back to camp when we are out riding!! B)

RichardCheese: Not ALL smokers treat the world as their personal ash tray. A small group of smokers give the whole group a bad reputation, the same as a small group of irresponsible dune riders give the rest a bad reputation. I got the spirit of your message but perhaps it could've been stated a bit better. :no_no:

:dance: Thank you, thank you VERY much!! Nicely stated.

[dinicolady]

If I recall correctly wasn't the idea of a group cleanup of highway 127 being tossed around? That would get the trash picked up AND get people to see that their trash may not be as secure as they think it is.

Yes, I do believe that has been discussed around here before. My hubby even offered to furnish the little-ol'-orange vests for safety reasons! Perhaps we should get a new thread going on that one?!?

[wsky70]

Thanks Vicki alot of good info....See told ya one of them could throw up a much more informative post.... And yes, we all need to take our trash all the way back home. Don't be leaving it in the surronding cities/towns. You wouldn't like it much either.....Semper Fi, Woody :freakin_nuts:

[Richard Cheese]

for all you smokers, if I offended you, or you thought I was directing my comment toward you, I wasn't. It was aimed at the ones (you know who you are) who have no shame flicking your butts out your car window into the street, and treat public/private property as your personal ashtray.

I know it isnt all the smokers, but the next time you are walking down the street, take a look in the gutter. freekin disgusting

it's an unhealthy habit anyway, instead of defending it, quit it. you can save yourself some cash too!