beau Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes, Coyote Holes, and Ibex Dunes (Death Valley). It is genetically distinct from all other fringe-toed lizards, such as those commonly found at other sites in the southern Mojave. The species in question is a California/Arizona native, not from Africa; the common name "fringe-toed lizard" is also applied to many lizards worldwide which have independently evolved fringed toes to run on fine sand. I believe it is possible for this isolated lizard population to coexist with ORVs at the Dumont Dunes, but it means that certain dune areas, particularly those that still have vegetation, probably need to be protected. Also, illegal ORV use at Ibex Dunes does not help lizards or riders; it gives authorities more reason to regulate. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Dumont? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don29palms Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes, Coyote Holes, and Ibex Dunes (Death Valley). It is genetically distinct from all other fringe-toed lizards, such as those commonly found at other sites in the southern Mojave. The species in question is a California/Arizona native, not from Africa; the common name "fringe-toed lizard" is also applied to many lizards worldwide which have independently evolved fringed toes to run on fine sand. I believe it is possible for this isolated lizard population to coexist with ORVs at the Dumont Dunes, but it means that certain dune areas, particularly those that still have vegetation, probably need to be protected. Also, illegal ORV use at Ibex Dunes does not help lizards or riders; it gives authorities more reason to regulate. This site is for people that enjoy going to Dumont for off roading purposes. It is not a place for back-stabbing, two faced eco-terrorist to be spouting their BS propaganda. Maybe when you come out to Dumont you could introduce yourself to me so we could have a constructive debate on the situation. Edited February 1, 2008 by Don29palms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandseeker Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Just a thought in helping people recognize the out of bounds areas . Maybe as a group we can get some bigger signs possibly through donations or put in as a group and then install them around the boundries the little 3" posts that are there are very weathered and you can't read what they say unless you get very close. Some big signs every 100 yards or so would be alot better than a fence and keep people that don't know the boundries in check and will show a big effort on the part of the duning comunity. maybe add some of these Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsky70 Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) I'm working with BLM to get a decent picture map with the out of bounds area now. I also talked to them about making all the markers RED as well, hard to see the brown ones. I'll send it to Pete and maybe he can put it up with the information...SF Woody Edited February 1, 2008 by wsky70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunefreak Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'm working with BLM to get a decent picture map with the out of bounds area now. I also talked to them about making all the markers RED as well, hard to see the brown ones. I'll send it to Pete and maybe he can put it up with the information...SF Woody Good idea Woody. Thank you. I will get it up on the site for everyone to see. Maybe even a page of the site designated to only this is needed. That way it can be on public display and clearly explained how it is an issue and that we all need to be responsible about this if we want to keep our dunes open to OHV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertskyz Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 but based on observed movements and limited ability of the species to cross unsuitable habitat, it is unlikely that isolated populations interact. No specimen of Uma has been captured more than a very short distance 148 feet (ft) (45 meters (m)) from wind-blown sand deposits I am wondering. How do they observe their movements. Round up a bunch of Conservationists, heard a bunch of lizards to a place and see if they cross it? Or do these people just sit around of months, weeks, days, hours on end these little guys. Maybe someone should be policing what the Conservationists are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailAway Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes, Coyote Holes, and Ibex Dunes (Death Valley). It is genetically distinct from all other fringe-toed lizards, such as those commonly found at other sites in the southern Mojave. The species in question is a California/Arizona native, not from Africa; the common name "fringe-toed lizard" is also applied to many lizards worldwide which have independently evolved fringed toes to run on fine sand. I believe it is possible for this isolated lizard population to coexist with ORVs at the Dumont Dunes, but it means that certain dune areas, particularly those that still have vegetation, probably need to be protected. Also, illegal ORV use at Ibex Dunes does not help lizards or riders; it gives authorities more reason to regulate. Welcome to the board UmaGuy. I would ask that you please be careful in how you phrase things. To state "The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes..." is not accurate. It has not yet been determined whether it deserves a finding as a distinct population segment and I sure don't like to see anyone jumping the gun and misleading the readers of this message board. By the way, I too believe that it is possible for the lizard to coexist with ORVs at Dumont and Friends of Dumont Dunes is working hard to make sure there will never be a need for Fish & Wildlife to intervene on behalf of the lizard. Also, your point about illegal off road use is a valid one. If we do not regulate ourselves, the authorities have no choice but to step in and do it for us and that's not good for us or them. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmaGuy Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Welcome to the board UmaGuy. I would ask that you please be careful in how you phrase things. To state "The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes..." is not accurate. It has not yet been determined whether it deserves a finding as a distinct population segment and I sure don't like to see anyone jumping the gun and misleading the readers of this message board. By the way, I too believe that it is possible for the lizard to coexist with ORVs at Dumont and Friends of Dumont Dunes is working hard to make sure there will never be a need for Fish & Wildlife to intervene on behalf of the lizard. Also, your point about illegal off road use is a valid one. If we do not regulate ourselves, the authorities have no choice but to step in and do it for us and that's not good for us or them. Vicki Beau, no I have not been to Dumont, although I am planning a sandboarding trip there this spring. I have been to other dunes nearby. Don, I would be happy to introduce myself to you at Dumont this spring. And I am not spouting "backstabbing eco terrorist propaganda". I am merely stating the facts to correct some misconceptions I saw posted on this open internet forum. Vicki, thanks for the welcome. However, I stand by my wording. The endangered species act specifically states that all decisions on whether to list a species as endangered, or whether a population is distinct enough to be protected as a "distinct population segment", must be based on the "best available science." Currently, the best available science strongly suggests that the Amargosa River clade is distinct - seperated from other populations for roughly half a million years. Granted, that study is based on only one gene, but it is the best available science. No one even suspected that the Amargosa River population was distinct until 2006, when that research was published. Andy Edited February 2, 2008 by UmaGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailAway Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Vicki, thanks for the welcome. However, I stand by my wording. The endangered species act specifically states that all decisions on whether to list a species as endangered, or whether a population is distinct enough to be protected as a "distinct population segment", must be based on the "best available science." Currently, the best available science strongly suggests that the Amargosa River clade is distinct - seperated from other populations for roughly half a million years. Granted, that study is based on only one gene, but it is the best available science. No one even suspected that the Amargosa River population was distinct until 2006, when that research was published. Andy, a strong suggestion is a far cry from a proven fact and no such decision has been made on this. It may well be that the final word will be that it is considered distinct but that has not been determined yet and we are a long way from reaching that conclusion. I do not want the casual reader to believe that this fight is over before it begins. It is also important for everyone to keep in mind that even if it is determined that the lizard is a distinct population segment, such a determination does not equal closure. And neither does "protection" of the species. Vicki Edited February 2, 2008 by SailAway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8rail Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) The Amargosa River distinct population segment of the Mojave fringe-toed lizard only occurs at Dumont Dunes, Coyote Holes, and Ibex Dunes (Death Valley). It is genetically distinct from all other fringe-toed lizards, such as those commonly found at other sites in the southern Mojave. The species in question is a California/Arizona native, not from Africa; the common name "fringe-toed lizard" is also applied to many lizards worldwide which have independently evolved fringed toes to run on fine sand. I believe it is possible for this isolated lizard population to coexist with ORVs at the Dumont Dunes, but it means that certain dune areas, particularly those that still have vegetation, probably need to be protected. Also, illegal ORV use at Ibex Dunes does not help lizards or riders; it gives authorities more reason to regulate. Andy, your post needs some answers and clarifications : 1. Ibex Dunes is not easy to reach from Dumont. Specially with a OHV. Also the road that was used before the (illegal) wilderness area was set up is very difficult to see. When you know where to look you could see that it is not used for a damn long time. I would say when there is a motorvehicle at the Ibex dunes, it is most likely a Death Valley NP visitor in a street legal car... 2. You did not mention the Val Jean Dunes . This dunes are basically the extension of the Dumont Dunes. when you go to Dumont, hook up with a regular and go to the "Northpol". from there look west-southwest and you will see about 10,000 acres of prime living area for this lizards . small dunes with vegetation. This dune area is in another illegal wilderness area; Kingston Range (BTW I say illegal because there are plenty of roads, mines etc etc in that wilderness area and it never should have allowed a wilderness designation) 3. IMHO the whole distinct population talk is big BS. That Lizzies population had no bigger hurdles to go from Dumont/Val Jean to Devils Playground and Kelso then doing the trip from Ibex to Dumont (or the other direction). How does that lizard at Kelso ? 4. like you said the Lizard is California/Arizona native :freakin_nuts: 5. We need to change the bogus ESA. ESA was a good idea going very very damn bad and currently only used to fill the pockets of the "environmental industry". $$$$$ The "environmental industry" does not care about the little bugs and animals. $$$$$ Thomas ex President of Friends of Dumont Dunes on edit : Google sat picture Ibex dunes Google map sat picture Val Jean Dunes Edited February 2, 2008 by v8rail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Beau, no I have not been to Dumont, although I am planning a sandboarding trip there this spring. I have been to other dunes nearby. Gotta love it.... Yet another person who has never been to a place but feels the need to tell us what to do and how to do it. :freakin_nuts: hippies I swear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don29palms Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Hippie no. He sounds like one of those CBD eco-terrorist greenie money grubbing hypocrites. If it sounds like a greenie and looks like a greenie it probably is a greenie. These greenie pieces of garbage are REALLY good about using only part of the truth to get what they want. They spout BS propaganda to get people that don't have a clue what the real situation is to be on their side. So many people are willing to jump on the save the enviroment band wagon without having all the facts. These eco-terrorist NEVER give all the facts. They don't care about what they are fighting for as much as the money they get paid. I wish that all those people would just mind their own buisness or better yet just eat a bullet and end their obviously miserable exsistance. Edited February 2, 2008 by Don29palms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Hippie no. He sounds like one of those CBD eco-terrorist greenie money grubbing hypocrites. If it sounds like a greenie and looks like a greenie it probably is a greenie. These greenie pieces of garbage are REALLY good about using only part of the truth to get what they want. They spout BS propaganda to get people that don't have a clue what the real situation is to be on their side. So many people are willing to jump on the save the enviroment band wagon without having all the facts. These eco-terrorist NEVER give all the facts. They don't care about what they are fighting for as much as the money they get paid. I wish that all those people would just mind their own buisness or better yet just eat a bullet and end their obviously miserable exsistance. Where I come from hippie=greenie, rock licker, tree hugger, nut butt, eco nazi, nature nazi and so on. Perfect example of how ignorant these people are- Penn and Teller's show Bullshit, when they sent a group into an Earth Day gathering with a petition to ban "Di-hydrogen Monoxide", all they told people was that it was everywhere and can kill. Thousands of people signed it because it was "bad for the environment". STUPID HIPPIES!!!!!! Then they showed the clips where the crew told the people who signed the petition that Di-hydrogen Monoxide was actually the scientific name for WATER. The people felt like complete a$$es and actually admitted that they only signed it because someone told them it was bad. Maybe we tell them it is really really good for the environment to jump off a cliff, ya never know, it just might work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmaGuy Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) Well if it is true that there is plenty of undamaged habitat for this population, then they shouldn't be listed. Like I said earlier, I am a big fan of these lizards, but I'm not an eco terrorist out to shut down all the ORV areas without good reason. To do so would give a bad name to conservationists. Well I'll visit Dumont Dunes this spring and see for myself how this lizard is faring both in the ORV area and in the surrounding off-limits areas. And I would be happy to talk to you guys in person so you can see what kind of "hippie" I am. I'll be the dude walking around with a fishing pole on the sand dunes. Or sandboarding. lol. Anyway, history has shown that there is no point in protecting a lizard, or any other species, without the local community's support. Edited February 3, 2008 by UmaGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmaGuy Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Just to make it clear, I might be a "greenie" but I'm not twisting the truth. For example, I mentioned earlier that the entire study defining the Amargosa river DPS is only based on one gene, a sample size of 1. You could use that as ammunition in your letters to U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Why do I say this? Because it's true. By the way if anyone does some real surveys around the area to prove that these lizards are common, especially in surrounding areas like Ibex Dunes that are off limits to ORVs, then that will instantly shut down the CBD's petition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8rail Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Just to make it clear, I might be a "greenie" but I'm not twisting the truth. For example, I mentioned earlier that the entire study defining the Amargosa river DPS is only based on one gene, a sample size of 1. You could use that as ammunition in your letters to U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Why do I say this? Because it's true. By the way if anyone does some real surveys around the area to prove that these lizards are common, especially in surrounding areas like Ibex Dunes that are off limits to ORVs, then that will instantly shut down the CBD's petition. good point.... but CBD knows exactly what they are doing. for example Ibex Dunes is a wilderness area inside Death Valley National Park, so as far as I know BLM can not survey that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmaGuy Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) good point.... but CBD knows exactly what they are doing. for example Ibex Dunes is a wilderness area inside Death Valley National Park, so as far as I know BLM can not survey that area. BLM can't... but other researchers/hobbyists can... CBD claims that Ibex Dunes is being overrun by illegal ORVs, but I have my doubts. Basically someone needs to survey all the areas around dumont dunes for lizards. I have a feeling that although they are rare where the heaviest ORV activity occurs, they might be dirt common and in no danger at all just a mile away. In some areas, like Kelso Dunes (which I have been to), they are really common; my friends have seen hundreds in a day. Elsewhere, like in Coachella Valley (which is a different species), they are on the verge of extinction. But I don't know what the case is around Dumont since I haven't been there... yet. Edited February 3, 2008 by UmaGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpirates2 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) Here's a close-up of the Lizard in question for those of us non-Lizard Guru's. Edited February 8, 2008 by Sandpirates2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandBox_Kid Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Just a thought in helping people recognize the out of bounds areas . Maybe as a group we can get some bigger signs possibly through donations or put in as a group and then install them around the boundries the little 3" posts that are there are very weathered and you can't read what they say unless you get very close. Some big signs every 100 yards or so would be alot better than a fence and keep people that don't know the boundries in check and will show a big effort on the part of the duning comunity. maybe add some of these I'm working with BLM to get a decent picture map with the out of bounds area now. I also talked to them about making all the markers RED as well, hard to see the brown ones. I'll send it to Pete and maybe he can put it up with the information...SF Woody Good idea Woody. Thank you. I will get it up on the site for everyone to see. Maybe even a page of the site designated to only this is needed. That way it can be on public display and clearly explained how it is an issue and that we all need to be responsible about this if we want to keep our dunes open to OHV. It would be nice to get some GPS coordinates once we have some sort of idea what is where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpirates2 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) It would be nice to get some GPS coordinates once we have some sort of idea what is where. I totally agree with Cmyfirepole - I know that a lot of people dont carry GPS with them while riding, although alot of us do. It would be like asking the BLM to help us build a TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction) in pilot terms, or in this case a Permanent Ride Restriction Area, that is outline via GPS boundries with signage like Woody mentioned as well. Not to turn us all into Ride Cops, but I think if somebody was riding in a area that we knew was off limits, you could show them. And at night, riding the backside gets difficult to know where you've cross over at times, especially for those of us who are still new to Dumont. I'd be more than willing to come out and help the BLM GPS the area, as I'm sure others would too. Edited February 9, 2008 by Sandpirates2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kens Colors Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Here's a close-up of the Lizard in question for those of us non-Lizard Guru's. They are very adaptable too, they seem to like digging their burrows under plastic trash bags, that are full of sand, I am sure I disturbed 10 or more on cleanup weekend out near the south pole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalalien Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Ever get the feeling there are some people combing the desert praying they can find a tiny animal or plant to propel their own agenda? So many dunes within 30 minutes of Dumont... transplant a few 100 of these suckers and set up a new colony.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beau Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Wouldn't be the first time. One of my employee's old friends from Montana has a ranch with roughly 20,000 acres that's been in his family for generations. All of a sudden CBD sends him a letter saying that he had to cease and desist from running cattle on a part of his ranch due to an endangered plant. He went to check it out and he had never seen the plant before in his life and all of a sudden there's a huge patch of it smack dab in the middle of his ranch. There is no way for anyone to know it was there without trespassing. A friend flew over one day and noticed that the patch of flowers was a perfect rectangle. Turns out the previous fall a group of "greenies" had air dropped seed from the endangered plant into a meadow on the ranch because they didn't like the cows because they "destroy land" and emit too much methane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandpirates2 Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) What Plant Are You Talking About - You Must Be Mistaken !!! - Just Me and the Cows Here Damn Greenie's. Maybe We Should Just Stop Farming, See Who Screems Hunger Then. Edited February 9, 2008 by Sandpirates2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalalien Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) I'd like to see a study about whether duners help or hurt the numbers of these animals. Insects attracked to the lights and so forth, predators chased away by the noise. Our pressence might be the cornerstone to their whole population. Love to see a study that says we MUST ride there. Edited February 9, 2008 by metalalien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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