ynot

I have a rzrs also but when I take it to Dumont it's paddeled up so a ride along would be great. I agree we will need maps and see if we can go to work on them. I don't know but I can guess why public comments are not going to be taken i can see Brown and Sorrels hands all over that. I think we as duners need to attend just for a show of strength and to gleen as much info as possible on what the hell there up to now.

Eli, I agree 100% with that post and in the previous post as I know both songs very well. I am sorry you may not make it as I am just not that familiar with the area they are discussing but I want to learn. If you don't make it I would like to sit down sometime shortly afterwards with you as you do know the area and I want mine and the others that are either attending or not to have that knowledge to work with in their e-mails. I have an appointment to speak to the BLM Wildlife Biologist tomorrow morning to find out why and when the decision to take verbal comments was made. As to the meeting itself, all I can say is I still believe attending will be good for all that are willing to follow up with a written comment. Otherwise it may be a waste of your time. I am going armed with a notebook and pen to take notes and my camera to take pictures of the maps that they most certainly have up to show the efffected area. I am still driving out and so far in my truck I have Ken and am picking up rap rider at rainbow & Blue Diamond. I can hold till 5:30 to leave if someone needs a little time after getting off work(JIM) But we will be flying low to get there on time. So let me know who needs a ride. Terry

is it a 2012 pass?

Yeah that would be about right. PM me your number and I will touch base with you by Tuesday mid day. Terry

If you want we could p/u up at Blue Diamond hwy and rainbow on our way out if you want. Looks like I will take Ken, Bert(depending on whatever this beanbag issue is) and you. That's 4 and if we need to squeeze in one more we can or just go with 4. Let me know what time you can be there Rap Rider?

I am good with what ever, yeah Ken and I talked about driving down but have not workrd out the details.

Back in the day we used to run Armstrong armor all's and you could run them down to 3 lbs on a CJ5 and dune the hell out of them. Then fill em up and cap the headers and put the windshield back on and drive back to Vegas. Great tires. You could only get them here in Vegas at a hole in the wall tire shop on North Main. I think it was Ed's tire and wheel.

Should only be about 1 hour 15-30 minute run depending a little on traffic but I am leaving about 5 5:15. I would like to ride down but if I need to I can take the truck.

Thank You Kobe for the offer. We will see what we will need after this meeting shakes out.

Eli, your are correct about the BLM being in charge of the lands. However they are like a string puppet being controlled by the greenies and the Washington bureacrats. Our(off-roaders) problem is that we are not united never have been but hope we will. Sure you can get some to come out to a meeting and a clean up but to try to get them together to understand what it's going to take to keep what we have left is like hearding drunk cats! I understand your frustration with BLM and I get frustrated with them also, however I have found that working with them on a close basis through FoDD and the Dumont sub-group and understanding the HUGE amount of bullshit they have to go through to get anything done is amazing. Wether the project is positive or negative in our eyes they are told by Washington and what laws the idiots who occupy the seats back there want done it is an amazinglly exsaparating issue. I sometimes wonder if they have to requsition TP and how much paper gets wasted just to get that job done. We as offf- roaders and as American Citizens have to stop reyling on the goverment to"Take care" of things because as we can all see by the way things are currently in this country now they would screw up an iron ball. Again we need to unite but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel we need to look to other enities that are already working with our interests in mind. such as Blue ribbon Colition, The Utah based LANDFORALL campaign which has been pretty successful keeping the US Govt and greenies taking over huge amounts of land in Utah. So in closing to all that I hope are reading this please if you can't '/won't get involved with your time and support local organizations at least send some money to the previouslly mentioned organizations. They will use it to better our interests and positions. Are you going to the Tecopa meeting on Wed. Eli? If so I would like to meet you and get re-started on another foot if that's ok with you. For the rest of you JUST SHOW UP WED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eli, I will apoligize right here right now if that wasn't you that I had those conversations with. Negative people all seem to run together in my mind and no I don't keep notes on BS conversations that do no good for anybody. As far as you being more involved in the T&T, I am sorrry but I am not and have no plans to be. i have enough on my plate at this time. However you came on a Dumont Dunes web site and told us to expect to get screwed. The truth is it sounds like you have been extremelly unsuccessful in your battles on the T&T and other areas of your interest. Maybe you should have asked the duners for help long ago and we could have all come together under one banner. I was not involved in the fight to keep Dumont open until about 7-8 years ago. Before that I was just like most and that is I just wanted to go duning and hang out with friends and have a good time. Fortunely I was asked to help in the operation of a fledgling group called Friends of Dumont Dunes. My focus has been there ever since. Keeping the CBD from closing the area due to a lizard and other BS attempts have been our focus. I was also very lucky to be asked to join the TRT for Dumont and BLM as a OHV representive for the state of Nevada. Might have been because I was the only one who applied but then again where were you and why did you not jump on the chance to get closer to BLM and to try to right all the injustices you say hapened on your watch? The BLM is going to continue to post signage and post and cable the area west of the T&T as directed by federal law. Not much you can do after the law is passed. Our best fight is before the law is passed by congress and signed by the president. That's why we are willing to work with the BLM and the surronding area iinterests to keep the balance of their interests and ours. Do I trust them, nope I learned a long time ago upon realizing how much politics are involved in a non political position. Will BLM screw us over, I doubt it as Barstow BLM needs Dumont to survive to keep that office open and operating. You see Dumont is the only well run fee demo operation of any of the Ca. OHV area's. We are used as a model for other dune/fee areas on how to retain the majority of the fee money instead of losing 37% to the vendors as they do in Glamis. The encroachment west of the TRT and in the surronding areas including Sperry wash is a mix of duners, railheads as you call them and other people who either don't know or don't care about staying out of those areas and that is what brings us to battles like this. It almost sounds like we are on the same team but totally on different coasts. I am sorry that you were unable to stop the Federal Goverment from closing out areas you didn't want closed but blaming BLM is like blaming the fire department for not saving the pad after the fire, BLM is a arm of the Federal goverment but it IS DIRECTED by Washington on what areas of concern they must close, manage and otherwise care for. The Barstow area manager is a very reasonable person and in the long period of time I have had dealings with her she has always kept her word and has always had an open mind on things we brought before her. But you canot blame her for posting signs and cabling off closed areas that have been closed due to the Endangered Species act and other Wilderness actions that the CBD and others have successfully gotten passed. Maybe if you had reached out to CORVA, Blue ribbon Colition and other various land advocates you all may have been more successful. And just so you know Randy Banis who is the chair of the DAC is a huge fan of the T&T and that whole area. I can tell you that he is extremelly well informed about what has happened out there for a very long time, well before I got involved. If you would like an introduction I would be glad to do that for you, he may be able to clear up some misconceptions that I believe you may have about the BLM and their role in all this. I am not a BLM lover but I am a fan of working with someone who has all the power instead of trying to hit them in the head with a hammer everytime I talk to them. Just a different approach I guess? Again I think we may be closer on some issues then it looks like and I have no ill feelings towards you but again you came on a duners web site and tried to blame duners for the issues you have had in the past before most of us became aware of the issues and became involved in keeping DUMONT open. I appreciate you picking up trash and helping out a child in the wash(something I hope we would all do) and I invite you to attend the 10th annual FoDD clean-up in March 2012 to see duners working hand in hand with BLM and each other. Just so you know it's the only free weekend of the year. I think that shows how much appreciation of BLM to our attempts to help them. I closing I have read the Wild river Wilderness bill and am well aware of the 3 designations of the Armagossa river. You need to know that the 5 mile section starting 100 feet east of the Dumont dune crossing starts the "recreation " designation and it continues for 5 miles west of that crossing towards SR127. This again was specifically written into this law by Congressmen McKeon to protect that crossing. If you want to try to blame duners as the cause of the intrusions into the closed areas on Wed. your more than welcome to however be very aware that your tactics may backfire and it will leave both groups, railfans and duners looking poorly. We need to come together in front of the people in Tecopa as a unified group of concerned OFF_ROADERS. Placing blame on one side or the other just does exactly what they want and have been successful in doing over the last many years when all this land was lost. We have to become one and stay that way to win against the true bastards of this issue not the duners and not the BLM but the Eco-Terroists that have to be stopped. Again my apoligies to you if it was not you in those old conversations. Again it has been many years and many computers ago, so not all e mails and other notes have been saved or kept from unfotunetly being lost. A computer whiz i am not. Just to make one last point many of my friends have names for me but be very aware i don't think anyone of them think I have my head anywhere but on my shoulders and my eyes/vision on the horizon of keeping Dumont and as much land open as I can. Terry PS. My condolences on the loss in your family. Having been thriugh that more than I care to think about.Ii know the pain and feel for you and yours. My best to your family in these difficult times. TA

Athough everything about the lack of motivation of Off Roaders is 100% true this letter was written some time ago. Mr. Denner passed away awhile back and is sorely missed by all who continue to keep public lands open. My apoligies for not researching this prior to this posting this morning.

WE ALL NEED TO READ THIS AND GET ACTIVE! OFF-ROADER APATHY! (DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME READING THIS) FROM: Roy Denner, Recreation Representative on the BLM California Desert District Advisory Council As you may know, the Desert District Advisory Council (DAC) is composed of 15 people from various interest groups who advise the BLM on management of the California Desert District. The California Desert District covers portions of 8 counties and includes over 10 million acres of public land. As the recreation representative on the DAC, I have attended the Council meetings and have reported events having significant impact to the off-road community. Probably the most significant activity having impact on OHV recreation ever to happen is the current effort by the BLM to develop a National Off-Highway Vehicle Management Strategy. I reported on this after the last DAC meeting and provided methods and contacts for comment. I just learned that the comments are running 5 to 1 against motorized activities. I can only conclude that the environmental organizations really care and the off-road community doesn't give a damn! On October 21 & 22 in Barstow, the DAC will be holding its next meeting. Items on the agenda include: 1. Update on the National OHV Management Strategy 2. Recreation Fee District Policy - A plan to charge fees at all recreation areas. 3. A briefing on the lawsuit by the Center for Biological Diversity - an attempt to close down the Imperial Sand Dunes. 4. Development of a California Desert District Non-Profit Association to assist in development of an action plan. I am only one of 15 people sitting on the DAC. More importantly, I am the only recreation representative who speaks for off-road recreation (vehicle (http://www.4x4wire.com/access/notices/blm/ca_blm_dac.htm#) and non-vehicle). If the sad response to the request for input on the new OHV Management Strategy is to be my guidline, I AM WASTING MY TIME!! OFF-ROAD RECREATIONISTS DON'T CARE!! And while I'm doing my job, I'm destroying my credibility with the BLM. So, here's my ultimatum (don't laugh too hard if you're still with me)! Unless I see an overwhelming turnout of off-road recreationist in Barstow on the 20th & 21st of October to provide support for our form of recreation, I will assume that I am not representing the off-road community in a proper manner and will resign from the DAC. I am not the kind of person who can sit quietly on this council while opportunities for off-road recreation are continually being eroded from all directions. I spend too much time and lose too much sleep over this situation to be representing the off-road community in the wrong way. I'm sure a more complacent, non-emotional, representative can be found. There are obviously lots of you out there. My family will be delighted to have me back. Incidentally, I am the DAC representative on the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area Technical Review Team - an organization that advises the BLM on how user fees should be expended. Since I would no longer be a DAC representative, I would obviously not be the representative from the DAC on the ISDRA TRT. If you're through laughing at my ultimatum, and are not too busy with other more important issues to give up a day in your life to help keep public lands open for use by the public, you might consider making the relatively short drive to Barstow on Saturday, October 21st. That is the actual DAC meeting day. The public is also welcome on the Field Tour which will take place on Friday, October 20. Information follows: MEETING PLACE: City Council Chambers at City Hall 220 East Mountain View Barstow, California Saturday, Oct. 21, 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. go west on Main St. and rt. on East Mountain View HOTEL WHERE DAC MEMBERS ARE STAYING: Holiday Inn 1511 East Main St. Barstow, CA (760) 256-5673 For more information, or copies of the agenda, call Doran Sanchez at the BLM CA Desert District Office: (909) 697-5220 If it doesn't cause too much of an impact on your time, please consider forwarding this message to other off-roaders who probably won't care either.

I saw this post this morning and wrote a reply which fortuately was deleted when I hit a wrong key. However after a couple cups of coffee and some thinking on the subject I remembered that this is not the first Negative nancy post you have had. Seems to me a few years ago we had a heated discussion on this board that we eventually took to PM status and then to phone conversation(s) I know you talked about how you had been involved in dealings with the goverment and could tell that you were very negative and wanted another fight with them. Maybe you lost the previous ones I don't know. You told me you had staff and were a successful financial consultant and had staff and would use them to carry on the battle. In real life what you were looking for was the inclusion of a couple of your ASA buddies onto the board of directors for the Friends of Dumont elections when we were just getting it started after Ed Waldhiem had asked a few people to take it over as he did not have the time to run it anymore. If I remember right you and your ASA buddies had a hard on for Vicki Warren who was voted in as President and that the fact none of your cohorts made the board you became dis-interested and told me you would not support FoDD as long as "she" had anything to do with it. Well we continued on without all your promised support and although Vicki is now a non voting advisor to the board of directors this is the first I have seen of you. You always stand on old lost causes that we can do nothing about. All the surronding land to Dumont that is closed and has been closed for many years is on the Federal register and cannot be undone. That would be like trying to re-open Kelso Dunes, it's never going to happen. Now on to Sperry wash I know for a fact as I watched the actions of Gerry Hubbard, Ed Waldheim and Randy Banis work dilgently to get the access to Dumont permently worded into the Wild River Wilderness bill. It is and always will be open as Sperry Wash is on the Recreational list of the bill and cannot be changed to either Wild or Wilderness. That area and the wording to get it in was pushed through with these gentlemens insistince to Congressman Howard P. "Buck" Mckeon who was a co-sponser to this bill. The only voice of reason of the authors who included Barbara Boxer and other enviromenlist Senators and congressmen. Without the many long airplane flights to Washington DC to personally meet with Congressman Mckeon we would have had a chance of losing the 5 miles of "Recreational designation" to the Armagossa river which includes and precludes any change in that designation. I am not saying that there could be a fight about it down the line but we stand a greater chance since the law was passed with that designation then if we had to fight to keep the access road open if it wasn't included. As to your claim of a video about a trailhead and pit toilets etc. It is well known and documented that the federal goverment does not have nor will likely have any such funds for this for a very long time and from a personal standpoint I have no issue with what they want to do. Why should trail riders have to use bushes etc. for their personal needs. One of the reasons this meeting coming up is to figure out how to stop the random egress and ingress into Sperry Wash from either the dune side or the north side near Tecopa. If Off roaders would stay on the designated trail we wouldn't even be having this conversation, again we are our own worst enemies. If you ran into the manager of Barstow BLM in Sperry wash and that person was a male, well then he wasn't the Barstow Area manager who is female and has had the position for at least 8 years that I know of. So I don't have any idea who you talked to but again if you were the Barstow area manager and had a crew out working, I am pretty sure wether male or female would have known the exact spot the crew was working that particular day as the Field Office has millions of acres to cover and I doubt the Manager is in the field on a dailey basis. The 50' section to the the west of the T&T rail bed has been closed for so many years I really can't remember when it happened. The problem is that people do not read nor obey these posted signs and encroach into closed areas thus causing disputes with the CBD and other "green" organizations. Again we are our worst enemy. As to the 50 duners not being welcomed as usual your uninformed as when we have had Sat meetings at the Barstow BLM office all the citizens were more than welcome they were appreciated. If 50 greenies showed up at a different meeting I would expect a federal office to treat them with the same respect and courtesy they have showed us. Don't believe me? Ask the 40 or so who came to the Sat meeting about 18 months ago. BTW I would like to see the video, not that it matters but I would like to see you live up to something you have said and written in here as you bash those who work their tails off to make sure that what can be done is getting done. As to my personal opinion of your post, when someone who stands on the outside and casts stones at the few who fight for the cause and just so you know MY CAUSE IS DUMONT DUNES OHV AREA. plain and simple. I want to make sure these dunes are available for us now and for generations to come whether it be in gas machines or electric dune buggies i don't care. It is a piece of heaven on earth for me and many who use it and treat it right. For us that use our time,our own money and effort to put on clean-ups and other events your slander is reprehensible. Lastly in closing I always find it comical that such people such as you and your negative ilk can stand behind a keyboard and throw stones but can't pick up a extra bag of trash or help another duner out. So I would appreciate it if you wouldn't plant your head on Comp Hill as it would deface the area and that my friend is what we are trying to prevent. I apoligize for the extremely long post but the readers need to know from where you come from and that you are a negative Nancy not a do'er. To bad you picked the wrong team but that happens. Anytime your willing to pick your self up out of the dirt we would welcome your help in any fight we may be involved in. As you may not be aware of it's typical that 95% of the work is done by less than 80% of the group, in this case it's probably less than 5% doing the work. With all due respect, Terry

I too am guilty of not going there. lived here all my life but have never been there. I was considering doing a day trip in the FJ about a year ago and after doing a little research on-line about it I found that there was not to much to see other than some old and some still active mines where vistors are pretty much not welcome(Tweakers maybe?) Some petroglyphs and some canyons that might be interesting but just couldn't justify trailering the RZR down or taking the FJ by ourselves. Let us know what you find? Terry

D Did you find a fifth wheel jim?

I agree and as you can see in the material the CBD and other organizations are taking tis to heart also.

Pat, I agree with you on every single point, that is why I was looking for everyone to be polite, listen and then speak our piece. I actually spent some time on google today looking up the Armagosa Conservency, Brian brown and Susan Sorrels, and the wild river bill that passed and was signed into law not to long ago. This will give you some insight into what and who we are dealing with. I think they would love to close Sperry wash trail/road but I don't believe BLM is in any way inclined to do that. They do though have to find away to protect the area surronding the trail, That's the rub, the greenies will just want the easy way out by closing it down and then can declare another OHV area closed off for all the world's protection. What we want is a reasonable way to keep people on OHV's from encroaching the area that the law protects. Mainly the areas that people are using off the Sperry wash trail to either take a short cut to the wash or to the dunes from the dunes to the wash. I am sure they will want to close the mines at the upper end of the wash and they are full of chemicals that lay all over the ground. However I am not going to give an inch on it unless we get something out of it. it is a series of negoations. I am not to sure exactly where they are going to attack so that why I want us to listen and then go from there. If we come off as a bunch of rowdy's we will get no where with these people, they think they know what's best for all I mean look who they voted in for president! I think it will be an interesting meeting and i am looking forward to a good show. Polite but firm. If everybody does a little reading on those subjects we will come off as we should be a united, educated concerned group and that's what we want/ Happy Reading! If you need anymore on this please don't anybody hesitate to ask, i am not an expert on it but I can reach out to some fols who are and will have the answers before the meeting. Terry

I was just there and was told that they ARE selling them at the discounted price during September. And just so you know BLM requires that they sell them at the discounted price! They don't have the option. If they have a problem let Mr. Larry Blaine at BLM Barstow know about it, he will get it straightened out:)

Ok just to clear a few things up. The crossing to Dumont Dunes is included in the already passed Wild River bill as a recreation acess and can never be closed. The whole piece of land from just above the rossing down towards the highway127 is designated offroad OHV access and was written in the bill with a lot of assistance from Jerry Hubbard of San Bernadino who is on the sub-group. It should never be closed from this point on. The battle is about the wild river bill's coverage of the Armagossa river which actually runs from Ash Meadows NV. 125 miles underground before popping up near the lovely town of Tecopa. There a couple of "endangered" species in Ash meadows that the Armagossa Conservency wants to protect. it makes no sense to me that that they worry about these "species" 125 miles away. The real truth here is that Mr. Brown and a lady by the name of Susan Sorrels who owns most of Shoshone want to make the towns of Shoshone and Tecopa the next new "in" spot for the ecotourist trade. The hole in the wall bed and breakfast on Mr. Brown's property charged several years ago $149.00 per night with only coffee and date bread for breakfast just a few years ago and it was told to me that they were full most of the winter. I would guess prices are up or at least the same and they are looking to expand their abilities to house more ecotourists. That being said the off roaders who use Sperry wash trail/road and go to Mr. Brown's date ranch are only hurting our cause in two ways, one being that they are buying products from a dedicated anti off roader and secondly,are then are shown as abusing the law and traveling down to his ranch even though the road and surronding area are off limits and have been closed for years, it is all about the allmighty dollar folks. I have had long talks with certain policy makers in the Barstow BLM office who have told me and they have never done me wrong yet that they have no intention of closing off access to Sperry wash trail/road. that this meeting is about how to protect the areas surronding it. Again I fear we will go back to the post & cable and I am always worried that the ecoterrorists will see post and cabling areas around Dumont as a victory. They will then move on to trying to get Dumont surronded by cable so all it will take is a 9th circut liberal court to pull the last cable and we are done. So in summary we need to act like ladies and gentlemen at this meeting, we do not need any more negatitive attitude from them then they already have thanks to the black tank dumpers and people who leave or allow there trash to fly out of there vehicles. But we need to show up in numbers to scare the hell out of them and let them know that when it comes to anything around Dumont we are Interested and are willing to stand against their attempts to tell us what and where we can ride. I can only ask that if you have something to say please make sure it pertains to the subject at hand not anything that really is not on the adgenda like fee's , LEO"s etc.or anything better suited for a sub group meeting. Please show up but show up and listen first then we will get our chance to answer and let them know are thoughts. Hope to see you there, Terry

I am really happy with my Muzzy exhaust if that helps.

Tuff choice, we could use your help but understand.

This is Wed. 09-14-2011. Just any kind of T-Shirt depicting your interest in off road would be fine.

Posted Yesterday, 01:42 PM This is in the Pahrump newspaper on 9-2-11. If you think the town of Tecopa wants to keep Sperry wash open your living in a dreamland. They want it closed and no OHV traffic anywhere near their little piece of Paradise by us bad off-roaders! Read the info on this meeting at the bottom of the post please. http://pvtimes.com/community/blm-tecopa-meeting-for-amargosa-river/ Pahrump Valley Times The Bureau of Land Management Barstow office will hold a public scoping meeting at 7 p.m., Sept. 14, in Tecopa, Calif., to gather comments for developing a management plan for the Amargosa River area. A short presentation regarding the planning process will be shown, and the public is welcome to participate and submit comments. In 2009, a 22-mile section of the Amargosa River was declared a wild and scenic river by Congressional legislation, and the BLM is charged with managing and protecting the outstandingly remarkable values of the area which earned it this special designation. Key among these is preserving the free flowing condition of the river, as well as other biological, historic, cultural, geologic or riparian features that make it unique. This wild and scenic corridor lies within a larger designated Area of Critical Environmental Concern, and the management effort will develop a joint management plan for both of these entities. This section of the Amargosa River is home to two species of endemic desert fish, the pupfish and the speckled dace, and because it is a permanent flowing stream it is also a critical source of water for a wide array of wildlife. The Amargosa Conservancy, a local nonprofit land trust, has been working with the BLM to move the planning effort forward. Another aspect of the plan is to allow for development of appropriate recreational opportunities such as hiking, birding, and horseback riding. It is hoped that these type of sustainable activities will also act as an economic engine for local eco tourism based businesses in an economically depressed area. For more information about this meeting, contact the BLM office at 951-697-5220, or by email at amargosa@blm.gov. These people even the one who is the president of the Armagosa River Conservancy and owns the China Date ranch wants us out of the area. Even though he takes your money and sells you his goods knowing that you have travelled illegally on paved roads and his county maintained dirt road to get there he wants OHV's out of the Sperry Wash! If they get what they want it will leave no OHV trails for folks who come out with dirt tires and want to ride their quads, SXS or jeeps/trucks whatever. I can tell you right now that those people who want to go for a trail ride will intrude on the already closed areas surronding the dunes and it will bring HEAT down on us to either shut us down or FENCE the whole area. Of course once the fence is in place a judge orders an injunction and the last opening is closed and we allowed it to happen! We need to show up as a interested group of Stakeholders and wear a dumont shirt so they know who we are and be respectfull but get our point across. The meeting is Wed. Night @7 PM and is about an 1 hour 15 minute trip from vegas, Who is willing to take an evening to protect our rights? Let me know as I have some seats available and would really like to see some support for our side for a change at one of these meetings. Terry President Friends of Dumont Dunes Nevada OHV representitive to the BLM Dumont Dunes DAC Sub-Group

Thanks, I am trying to mellow in my old age:)